How To Market And Advertise
Devin MillerThe Inventive Journey Podcast for Entrepreneurs
How To Market And Advertise
The Inventive Journey
Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.
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is first and foremost as you're looking at you know understand your xyz statement right and this helps with everything like i help x this is your ideal client to do y right this is the service they do so they can have or they can achieve z right the outcome if someone actually go through and understand who they help what they actually do as a service and what the outcome is i help x to achieve y so they can have z this will actually help you across all different aspects because it allows someone to understand it's kind of like your elevator pitch but in a short precise way because now i can build out you know targeting based on who i help i know when i'm creating content i know who i'm talking to [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive expert i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several startups in the seven and eight figure businesses as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks if you ever need help with yours just go to strategymeeting.com grab some time with us to chat and we're always here to help now today we've got another great guest on the podcast joshua lee and today we're going to talk a lot about marketing and advertising and that can be everything from social media marketing online marketing in general organic marketing we might even get a little bit in shift gears a bit and talk a little bit about being a parent as an entrepreneur and work-life balance and how you might deal with divorce as an entrepreneur or whatnot so we'll see where things take us that's another fun area that we'll hopefully hit on as well so with that much as a introduction welcome on the podcast josh devin man i always love to be here um you know we have such great conversations and i i doubt today will be um anything but that right you know we're gonna have a great conversation today but yeah hi everyone i'm joshua lee um devon brought me on here based on some of my background i've been you know an entrepreneur for 20 years very similar to devon multiple different startups in the six seven eight figure range um i started my first business back in o2 with uh clients like myspace and google and yahoo and you know since then i've probably monetized over half a billion dollars in advertising and controlled over 35 trillion online impressions across my own servers so you know i've been in the traffic game worked in the marketing and advertising and these days right now i do a lot to really help with the organic side of that marketing and really teaching people how to be able to really connect with their audience rather than actually sell them so anyway we want to want to jump in man we can we can do it today awesome well i think that's a definitely a great introduction i'm excited to have a great conversation so yeah with that you know we'll talk a little bit about you know marketing slash advertising i know that they are different depending on you know what fields you're in you say no marketing is completely different advertising and advertising like no it's all part of marketing and everybody gets a bit of a different answer so even if it i'll probably use eternity interchangeably even though i do understand there is a a bit of a difference or a big difference depending on who you ask but with that you know there's there's a few ones that we've talked or we hit on just talking a little bit before the podcast that you can jump into when you're looking at i'll say getting the word out there in other words marketing and advertising what you're really trying to do is drive sales you're trying to drive revenue you're trying to get more customers and you're really trying to get more sales in order to make more money for the business so with that you know there seems like there's a few different ones you can do social media marketing and that can be everything from facebook instagram tick tock twitter linkedin i'm sure there's about 20 other ones that i'm not hip enough to understand or know about but then you also have just kind of generally online marketing which i would put is probably more of ppc or paper you know paper pay-per-click which is you know google adwords i think ming is still out there maybe they are yeah it's i think it's still kind of good but you know or basically we're paying for clicks and then you also have organic advertising which can be everything from seo to some you know organic posting and creating and following a community so with that there's a lot of different ones we could hit on and we'll probably touch on a few but if you know it seems like and you can definitely you're the experts that correct more wrong but depending on your business different ones may work better for your business in other words sometimes organic may work better than social media if you depend on your business or pay-per-click may work better than artwork you know seo or different ones so if you're a business and you're trying to figure out let's say you're new to this and you have some early success you're getting the business up and going and you're trying to figure out what is our marketing plan or how do we tackle this and there's so many different avenues i can go and i don't have the bandwidth to do all of them what are kind of some of the ideas or ways you start to figure out which one you should initially focus on yeah well you know i mean devin it kind of starts with when you look at marketing and this is almost a different thing too like marketing versus branding right so i think a lot of times people go in and go i need to get to marketing well if they haven't if you haven't really flushed out your brand and what you're doing and why you're doing it and what your end customer is getting out of it right because this is the biggest thing i think most people look at is they sell on the service not the outcome and so that's where most people miss out and they go oh i'm gonna market they're marketing their service like why am i spending all this advertising dollars and actually not getting a return because you didn't take the time energy and effort to really go in and understand what your brand is and i think that's where i think a lot of people we live in a world where i mean dude i mean i think you and i when we both started our companies like i didn't have access to these social media platforms like we do now where i could do a post i could get you know 5 000 people or 500 whatever it might be to respond and give me their inputs because you know everyone's got an opinion so that's the beautiful thing that i think that most companies need to start when you're going in is how do you test your market well yes facebook linkedin instagram depending on what kind of product you're offering each platform is it works really well in different ways for you depending on what you're trying to accomplish but use and leverage these right go out there post something hey i've got x service and it gives this outcome would you would it be something you'd be interested in right instead of just putting an ad out there i think it's better to be this is the way i've seen it spent lots of money in advertising i've actually monetized a lot for many other people and these days if you don't understand who your audience is why you do it and the brand behind it i'm going to tell you like it's when you start advertising and devin please weigh in any point in time man it's how much money are willing to spend or lose to understand what works and i ask everyone that right like how much are you are you willing to spend or lose five thousand ten thousand if you're going to go straight into advertising if you don't know how your market actually responds so that's really kind of you can play along with the social and get some free opportunity to understand and then move to marketing no and i think that that's it's a hard question because i would if you're to ask me not to say i want to lose as little as possible in other words i don't know what i need to lose you know because it's a hard one if i were gonna go and spend five thousand dollars and you know initially losing five thousand but we we use that five thousand or we gain experience understanding and after that it takes off then sure i'll lose five thousand and then i'll make a hundred thousand that's a great you know great trade-off mother on the other hand i lose five thousand i don't learn anything and it's just sunk cost then i'm gonna say well i don't know if i wanna just lose five thousand dollars for the fun of it so but i do agree i think that you know doing a little bit of figuring out where your customer lies or where they're at is going to be are beneficial and it seems like you know a lot of times you can start to take baby steps and you don't have to go out and have the hundred thousand dollar marketing budget to say social media at least early indications may not work for us you may say hey we'll try a little bit of pay-per-click we'll try a little bit now you have to give it enough wherewithal you can't go do it for a couple days and say hey we didn't make you know we're not the drop ship company that we did facebook ads for two days and we didn't make money so we're going to close down and you know and then go away that's probably not going to work but so now let's say let's let's just uh dive in a bit to each of them so we'll go with the one that's i like the most but i think it's also the hardest and i think businesses struggle the most and i know it's not an order um which is organic advertising which i'd say is you know you can say hosting is one and you can also say seo is one so let's go with either or let's go with seo just for the fun of it but you know you have seo which is for those of listening search engine optimization it basically tells you if you do a good job you rank higher on google or maybe bing if anybody is big i'll pick up bing just because i don't know of anybody that's actually used it but you know you go you go with google and you say okay i'm searching for this term and whoever pops up at the top that's because it's you know not only just relevant but they also do a good job of within google's algorithms of getting themselves to the top but to my in my mind it seems like it's a longer lift or at least that's kind of the general thing it's not going to be an overnight hey i'm going to write a wonderful my amazing the best article in the world and next week i'm going to have everybody reading that article and i'm going to have tons of traffic because i put on the time and so how do you as a business if you're saying i think seo is important i think it's something that we should do long term but in the short term it may not have it may not have as quick of a turnaround or have that return on investment first of all is that accurate and then second of all how do you weigh that against the other avenues that may be a little bit more instant gratification or quicker turnaround i think we all have to play the seo game to some extent but the biggest thing is you're always playing against the algorithm right i mean like seo is a long long tail play right i mean like if you're just looking for a short term to make money well you're always gonna have to continue to reinvent if you're just trying to make that short quick gains so seo is the long play and i mean look i've been doing this business long enough to be able to understand that actually i want to be able to play the long game because it allows like guys like you and i and people listening to be in the industry longer than just to be able to take up oh this is hot right now let me put some money behind it and then you're looking for the next trick or you know to be able to jump on so one way that we've actually used seo we work with our clients too devin is seo takes like look to be able to get rankings you're gonna spend anywhere from potentially two to ten thousand dollars depending on the company to be able to kind of come in there and be able to rank it'll probably take up to six months sometimes to really get in there now a trick that we've found is using linkedin so most people don't realize that linkedin is very highly seo optimized and indexed by google so prior to this we've all seen when you search for someone i guarantee you if everyone here goes on google right now and searches devin miller i bet you ten to one that his profile on linkedin is probably gonna be one of the first posts to come up it just happens that way you know and because of linkedin indexing the that aspect of your profile and when you actually go through them now they're used to also devin index articles so that the beautiful thing about linkedin is the moz score moz and if you don't know this this is just kind of not you devon specific but people listening this is how google kind of ranks the seo abilities 0 to 100 and linkedin is actually a hundred out of a hundred on the moz score so you can take your exact same blog that you have on your own website and actually take that on linkedin well actually because of linkedin and the the partnerships that they have there it will actually rank higher in google so now you're not only getting organic visibility on a platform like linkedin but you're also getting on that one platform we all care about which is google so and a huge shift they just did in the last couple of months devin is now they're actually indexing your post so everything that you're doing on a platform like linkedin you're getting that double dip and i mean this is where you want to play the short term games of the instant people that are seeing it on social and i'm playing the long tail game because i'm getting everything indexed on google so that's kind of how we play seo and it works really really well if you're really paying attention to leverage like it's the same thing right like pinterest is indexed by google so it's a great way to be able to take those same articles pin them on pinterest youtube is another search engine so you've got to be able to understand what other search engines are out there that also index on google and you can get multiple facets of opportunity no and i think that that's that's some great thing i like how you know we've done a time to repurpose a lot of our content on linkedin just for that very fact of hey it gives you a bit of you know what was interesting is we'd have articles i wrote i think i wrote originally on linkedin and then we ended up putting it before even though this is before we really got our website up and going i was putting content on linkedin and i was working with other law firms and before i got my own law firm up and going and some of that content still outranks us that you know you'll search it and it'll come up and it will still be on linkedin first now i did while you were talking i did go and google myself on link or google myself to see where it popped up and i don't get number one ranking for anything with my name but i am ranked number two and it is my linkedin profile a number three ranking is the the website so link linkedin beats me by one position so i'll have to see what i could do to work on that but no i think that's a good point now one question with um with seo and it comes up and i've had the question and thought about it and kind of go both ways is you know to your point there is always an evolving algorithm you know if you're to go back long enough with google from my understanding again i don't i'm not an expert but i play one on a podcast which is um you know there it used to be if you had so many backlinks and if you had a whole bunch of backlinks and you would be ranked higher because backlinks indicated that a lot of people were linking to his experts well they found that people were gaming the system they were you know maybe yeah i can go on like fiverr and get a whole bunch of backlinks yeah so now that's you know you can still go on fiverr and get a whole bunch of backlinks it just isn't worth the five dollars right for it but you know and and they continue to shift you know and i know i don't keep up the speed nearly as much but the question that kind of comes up is should we more focus on building your content based on the current algorithm or should you be more building good just good content which will always be what google's trying to find out in other words i'll give you a couple examples let's say i write really great seo optimized articles that don't really provide a lot of value but have a lot of the keywords a lot of things that are going to be hitting on what i want the seo to rank me for or i can do you know a great article that is really you know informative is helpful if people were to find it it might have video content it might have written content you know it's very interactive in other words when people hit on it they're going to think it's a really great article they're going to dwell on it longer read it longer but it may not be as seo optimized or may not be the focus which is kind of the if you're taking a long-term strategy should you kind of do the content to our geared towards the algorithm or should you do it hey we're going to make long-term content and we think that our google will always man i mean this is the whole thing and if you're always trying to game the system you're always going to try and get it's you're always trying to move towards the what the algorithm is going the algorithm for these platforms change constantly they're trying to beat the people that game the system if i find an article that's super seo optimized and it doesn't read any value that's great but it's really not doing anything the one algorithm that i think that truly matters more than all others is the human algorithm and that one's that's the one that just adjusts over time but it doesn't change like we the human algorithm has been within us and how we actually connect and relate to other human beings so much more in the value so 100 man if i was going to be able to go in and tell someone hey if you're going to take the time energy and effort go in you want to be that build that know like and trust and if i go to your article and it's just seo optimized and gives me no value that doesn't build no like and trust at all it might give me the no because i see your name but now i know you don't add value to my plot to me for anything that you're doing so 100 go through always add value because if you continue to constantly do that you will show up in a world result because what we want to be able to do is when you do that you build advocates of your platform and an advocate is so much more powerful because it's someone that like like devin him and i have connected here a long time and like you read something i wrote and you potentially share it i want to be able to have that in that algorithm more so than just showing up and paying to pay to play so to speak yeah no no i'm not saying you can't try and do both you can do real you can't of course seo optimize but i think that you know the point and i think you hit you are hit on a bunch better than i would is that you know playing that long game of hey this is going to be content that people are going to resonate that's going to that's always going to think in the long term play well with the algorithm they're going to look at dwell time they're going to look at how long you share they're going to look at whether people are actually enjoying it whether or not you're getting reviews for it or whether or not it's getting posted or commented on all of which i think to agree impact the algorithm and even as they make those shifts you know if all you're doing is trying to play the game at some point they're going to figure out you're playing the game rather than creating good content you're going to get caught that's exactly significantly your hand for what you're doing yeah i mean devin dude i have an article i wrote on medium i have a few actually i wrote on medium 10 years ago on the first platform i still on a weekly basis anywhere from 15 to 20 reads on these articles and i mean that's what they weren't nothing to do with seo optimization it was truly about how do i actually give value and like to be able to have something that's lived that long and continue week after week be able to get that that's just because i gave value each and every time no i think that's that's a great takeaway so now let let's shift gears just a little bit so we hit a bit on that all of these topics could be something that you could i'm sure we could go on for much longer but they kind of give a bit of an overview so now i go to online advertising versus social media and i know that there's kind of an ongoing battle some people are much in the social media camp of hey it's going to be you're going to be reaching better audiences or maybe it's less expensive or maybe you can better target or you know the same thing you can make the arguments for pay-per-click or for you know for google searches as oh this is more targeted they're higher in 10 and it seems like you know depending on where you specialize and you know if you specialize in both and you're saying hey they're both good avenues but you also have people that are just social media or just google and it is becoming more specialized and it's harder to be an expert in bold unless you spend a lot of time on it but how do you kind of decide should i do the social media if i had to choose one social media you know do the outreach whether it's facebook linkedin instagram tick tock i don't know there's 20 others um or you do you know maybe you do the new truth social with trump i don't know i don't even know how or you do more of the high intent people are searching for you you know what are the trade-offs what you know how what should you be considering when you're looking at the between those two um as to how you should start to tackle you know it's it's time versus money right i mean this is the really how how do you do it if you have enough time to be able to be able to invest in i mean the best way to be able to go about it is to be using social media and being able to really be able to garnish an audience that continues to be able to come time after time because as you continue to be able to grow you'll be able to grow that audience grow that opportunity and be able to connect but you can't just put posts out there you've got to be able to put posts and then engage with people that engage with you and be able to start conversations so like i said it takes a lot of time now if you've got enough money to be able to invest in if you want to be able to move faster 100 percent you can be able to put it into advertising you can be able to go in but it does it's it's not like back in the day when i first started devin i mean look man we were buying clicks at tenths of a penny right you know i mean it doesn't happen and it actually converted into good traffic now i mean you go on platforms like linkedin on advertising i mean you're looking at a minimum cpc you know to be able to go in at anywhere from five dollars and up facebook these days i think averages are anywhere from two to three dollars i mean they've constantly going up i mean i've talked to friends now and the season we're in and i mean they're seeing double um what it costs to be able to convert into a client than it used to so that's the whole piece right and every single person has to i wish i could be like you know what this is the end all this is exactly what you have to do but each and every person is different and their business is different so i would say it's a combination of both right you can't lose one for the other but it's really if you have time take the time if you know how to be able to connect with your audience you're going to be real raw and and connect social media and the power behind it is amazing but what people are looking for is real and raw not overproduced if they think that you're actually on there doing a commercial you're talking about yourself you're like oh there's there's josh again that dude never shuts up about linkedin that's exhausting no one wants to hear that all day so you have to be able to allow that connection opportunity but if you have the money aspect you can go through like you said on facebook you can do 10 a day test be able to understand from multiple different campaigns and really be able to figure out where your audience is then build retargeting but the average person you're competing against everyone that's been doing that for so long so it does cost a lot more to be able to get that visibility that's in there so now i'll ask one more question then we're going to shift gears i'd like to at least touch on a little bit of uh parenting and work-life balance but on the social media aspect so i know we're jumping between a few of them but now let's focus in on social media one of the other questions i think often comes up and i know all of these are you can do all of them and if you had a limited time money and budget you wouldn't you should probably should do all of them you know oftentimes you're working as a startup or small businesses yeah i have the all i don't have an unlimited budget i don't have an unlimited time and i have to start doing something and i know i should be doing everything but i can't do everything so now when i go to social media you know there's a couple ways that you can attack it you can do what i'll call organic and maybe that's the wrong term but where are you doing posting and you're sharing content and you're just going on and being active on social media you don't have to pay for any of that unless you're having a social media you know manager but you're not paying advertising you're not writing facebook or the different social media platforms to put your content on there versus you can go and just do straight advertising you can do targeted ads and how do you weigh those or how do you balance or how do you decide hey should i start out just building your organic audience and providing great content or should i do or start doing ads and if you had to choose one how would you choose one of those two if i had to choose one and being able to go through right now i mean like we we've made a big shift i work with you know a lot of you know startups and you know and through our courses and training and being able to teach them how to be able to go in and be able to leverage because the biggest thing is devin you can't go out there especially on social media and put out a post to go okay look up towards the sky go they're gonna come here comes you know here come my my clients that doesn't happen you have to be able to post and then engage on other people it takes a lot of time to be able to go through that so me personally when we actually train our clients we train them how to be able to post how to you know we use linkedin specifically and how to be able to draw on that audience be able to engage with the people and start a conversation because all the magic and social media really happens in the dms the direct messaging and so being able to connect with the people that engage in your content following up with them asking questions and building that conversation that relationship same thing with someone looks at your profile or identifying your ideal audience and engaging on their content that's really a true social media play if you're going to do the organic side so that's what we really bet on um now if you're trying to just sell a project let's let's say it is um devon let's say it's you know you're you're selling a product like a true on like under 100 product because this is where i'm going to tell you go the advertising route right because i think you can really be able to pull it up a lot faster you know most of our clients have products or services that range anywhere from three to five thousand dollars and up so they're a high-end product doing advertising dropping someone into a funnel on a high level is doesn't work as well because we know most of us understand automation we kind of pull out of it really quickly but on a smaller product we're selling a whole bunch of it let's say sunglasses whatever it might be i think the way to be able to go is the advertising way because you can be able to identify your audience be able to go in based on their what they know and then be able to use retargeting to be able to get directly to them for your product or service i think that's uh that's some great uh advice and some great takeaways so yeah now with that shifting years just a bit and one of the other things that we chatted before the podcast which i thought was a fun point and i think it's one that is you know it's different from advertised differently different from marketing what we've hit on but definitely something that everybody gets hit with is how do you do work-life balance how do you you know deal with if you are going or either heading towards a divorce or gone through a divorce and how do you deal with parenting and all those things kind of intermix because you know it's a contrary to what you might see on television and movies just because your successful work doesn't mean you're successful in the family just because you're successful with the family doesn't mean you're successful work but they do have an inner play and they do have an impact if you're working all the time your family usually suffers if you're at home all the time having a great time with you know like in the movies when they seem to work about one hour a week you can have a great family life and yet your finances and your business are going to suffer so give us a little bit of thought or impact how do you find that work-life balance and how do you deal with those things yeah and i mean i think the the biggest issue that most people see is that work-life balance balance is such a heavy word balance is so hard and it's almost impossible to achieve right we have to be able to look at more integration how do we integrate the different aspects of our life and this is something that i went through i mean like when i quote unquote had or is pushing towards work-life balance devin i mean you know this is back today yes i was running 10 different companies but was 45 pounds overweight my relationships were monetary and i had no vision about where i was going to see where i was at everything was work or play and i mean it was really unbalanced in that aspect and i was miserable and i really had to kind of reset my life and be able to go through and you know really take a step back because you know outside looking in the perception was uh josh had a lot of money um wife the kids everything the house all that stuff and you know it was it was great but i wasn't happy because it wasn't actually being fulfilling and i wasn't integrating the different aspects that i needed to be first for myself and this is where i think a lot of people need to understand to be able to be a good father to be able to be a good husband um to be a good partner business all is that just a good human being if you don't give to yourself first and be able to make sure like how do you wake up right so those were a lot of things that i had to be able to shift was how do i give myself that energy to be able to fill my cup first and so i could actually fill others right and be able to go through in every aspect as entrepreneurs we put ourselves in these silos and we're always giving giving giving and doing and trying to take on everything and you know it's kind of like atlas pushing the boulder uphill and our cup gets empty and so if our cup is empty we can't fill anyone else's cup and then we just kind of continue to be able to go through or our cup is too full because we're taking on too much so these are the different things that i had to figure out devin and i mean look i i did i had to go through divorce and um it was where we're at what kind of situation i wish i could have been able to figure out a better better solution but that was the solution that was best for myself and my former and for my kids and when i reset that and started going through it's kind of where i wrote the book balances you know bs because we have to be able to shift that and look i want my kids to be able to be proud of who i am not just how much money i make but how i am as a human being and as entrepreneurs we have the ability to be able to shift and change this world more so than anyone else and if we burn out as we're seeing more and more millennials and younger individuals trying to really be burned out it's we're not going to be able to make these shifts so first it comes with some of the guys like you and i have been doing this for a long time sharing what we've how we've fallen and how we've gotten back up again no and i think that there's a lot of truth you know what what is hard and i think that you know across my fingers i have not had to go through a divorce and hopefully never have to but i think that a lot of times i know earlier on in my career the balance was certainly over to the i'm working a ton of hours getting experience being successful and it wasn't what they intend to pay i want to shaft my family it was just hey i've got a lot of things to do and i've got to get them done and i only have so many hours in the day and oh you know i i'll get caught up on this one thing and then next month i'll spend more time or next week or next year tomorrow or whatever spend more time with the family and it's easy to get out of balance and i think just like we almost talked about with you have to balance a lot of times marketing and sales and what you're taking on and what you're going to do and trying things out you also need to have that hey i'm going to have balance with my family that i'm not going i have to have a variety and not just work in my life and not just family in my life but i have to balance that i think that you know once you gain that is interesting at least for me personally i found that when you get that balance in work and and family both are more successful and do better if you are spending you can spend 20 hours a day on the business and you know only sleep and never have any time to family and or you can have a better work-life balance and your work-life balance when you have that right you're going to have the more today the less amount of time you're going to be spending at work is getting me more productive you're gonna get more done and you're gonna be more you're gonna be happier all in the process so i think it's definitely worthwhile to pursue well as we start to wrap up and there's a whole bunch of more things that we could hit on that we'll have to we'll have to chat sometime down the road on but if people are wanting to reach out to or before they want to reach out to you and i almost jumped ahead over the last question shame on me before we get to there before we get to help people reach out to you always have one question at the end of each podcast which is you know we've talked a lot of things we've talked about seo and organic advertising online you know pay-per-click social media we talked about work-life balance and i mean all the various aspects that people are considering the business and you know way too many things to add to get to all get started on today so if you say hey you know for those startups or the small business out there if they can only have one takeaway one thing that they can get started on today what would that one thing be the one thing that i would push anyone as you're starting out your business is first and foremost as you're looking at you know understand your xyz statement right and this helps with everything like i help x this is your ideal client to do y right this is the service they do so they can have or they can achieve z right the outcome if someone actually go through and understand who they help what they actually do as a service and what the outcome is i help x to achieve y so they can have z this will actually help you across all different aspects because it allows someone to understand it's kind of like your elevator pitch but in a short precise way because now i can build out you know targeting based on who i help i know when i'm creating content i know who i'm talking to one i know the service and allows someone else to understand what i do but that's always the biggest thing right it's the outcome of what you do this is the biggest thing that most people miss out on and when you can figure these things out you can build marketing plans you can do advertising you can actually build out the content and it gives you the the framework that you need to be able to build out that business and be able to allow your message to be able to be received by everyone you're trying to attract no i think that that is that is a great takeaway and definitely something that people can get started on now as we wrap up and as if people want to reach out to you if they want to you know be a customer they want to be a client they want to be an employee they want to be an investor they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to reach out to you contact you find out more dev and of course you can always find us at standoutauthority.com but i mean even better man i love when i'm on a podcast with someone like yourself you know linkedin is my power platform you can find me joshua b lee on there and you know reach out send me a message tell me why you listen to devin miller all the time so that gives me a reason why i can reach back up devon go hey dude look at all these amazing messages i got about all your listeners that reached out to me so that's always what i love to be able to do because it not only allows me to build a relationship with them but it also lets me build a better relationship with you as well awesome well i definitely encourage people to reach out connect and leverage the expertise and make those connections that can help grow your business well thank you again joshua for coming on the podcast it's been a fun it's been a pleasure now for all of you that are listeners out there make sure to subscribe make sure to share the podcast and make sure to leave us a review because we want to really make sure that we can share this expertise and this knowledge with as many startups and small businesses as it are out there because our mission is really to help startups and small businesses any way we can including with patents and trademarks so if you ever need help with patent and trademark just go to strategymeeting.com grab some time with us to chat thank you again joshua for coming on the podcast and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last appreciate [Music]