How To Start A Podcast
Devin MillerThe Inventive Journey Podcast for Entrepreneurs
How To Start A Podcast
The Inventive Journey
Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.
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just avoid judging the podcast harshly you know tell yourself i'm not going to judge this podcast until my 100th episode until i get there i'm just going to put out content um and in that process you're going to get better in all kinds of different ways you didn't even think of the thing that kills most podcasts is people just get too self-conscious with it and they they their the delta of where they are and where they want to go just seems too high to climb you know so just keep doing it it's like nobody's listening to my podcast doesn't matter record another one you know i don't have the right cover art doesn't matter just record another one keep going keep going you get to that 100th episode and you're going to have domain expertise in all kinds of different ways you didn't even expect [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several startups in the seven and eight figure businesses as well as a founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks if you ever need help with yours just go to strategymeeting.com we're always here to help now today we have another great guest on the podcast and this is an expert episode and as ironic as it is on a podcast we're talking about podcasts but i think it'll be a great and a fun episode but ryan is a estes is that how you say the last name estes estes i was close but not quite so as a quick introduction so ryan we're going to talk about everything all things podcast and so everything from you know why you should listen to podcasts probably not as much of that but more so if you're thinking as a business should i go on podcast or should i be a guest on other podcasts this is a good way to reach new audiences should i start my own podcast what's involved you know how to do that how do i find guests and kind of i don't know if we'll get through all of it but it'll be a great conversation um and so with that much is introduction as an introduction welcome on the podcast ryan thanks so much devon i'm really happy to be here i appreciate it absolutely i'm excited to have you on so with that in mind you know before we dive into the questions and talking about podcasts and everything else maybe give the audience just a quick introduction a little bit about yourself why you're an expert on this uh this topic and why people should listen to you absolutely so uh i am the co-founder of kidcaster.com and we are a podcast booking agency we work largely with funded startups uh startup founders that is entrepreneurs with exits and c-suite execs and we booked them on the world's top podcast um i got started in podcasting maybe 15 years ago i was kind of on the heels of a uh unsatisfactory business exit we'll call it and took a job that was about an hour and 20 minutes away from my home so i got kind of sick of my playlist pretty quickly i don't know what this fly's doing that's not good for podcasting he just wants to join in the fun yeah okay he could be there on the boom arm whatever um so yeah 15 years ago i'm stuck in an hour and 20 minute commute each way to a job you know i i was an entrepreneur i owned a health food brokerage and um that kind of fell apart so i took a job you know and i ran out of my playlist uh pretty quickly got kind of sick of it and kind of discovered podcasting through that and podcasting early on even 15 years ago became kind of a sav i was in a uh maybe a bluish phase for uh the estes household two young children um kind of figuring out what to do next and podcasting came along in the perfect time so um after that i i kind of decided to to strike out on my own with my own podcast and put a couple together and had some success there and really over the next 10 years um just fell in love with the medium you know i i founded a podcast called the denver denver business podcast that kind of fed leads to my marketing agency and um just had a ton of fun with it produced maybe six seven shows did launches um had a great time with it so flash forward to two years ago uh our co-founder brandi and i were kind of having lunch and she had a pr firm that i'd worked kind of parallel with for years particularly around the podcast and she's like you know let's do a project together we had great chemistry we're like cool well let's do something in podcasting so kind of throwing business ideas around looking for something that could scale um in podcasting so the idea of a booking agency much like a musical booking agency and or a music act booking agency um kind of took root with the idea being you know scaling uh agency like that would be old school you know it's like butts and seats you know building a culture providing jobs both of us had kind of come from startup you know software world where you're looking lean and mean teams with 90 margins and this was different and i think it both it appealed to both of us so we kind of set our heads to it and you know two years later here we've got a staff of 18 here in denver um about a 117 clients and growing exponentially podcasting has been very good from us for us so as far as i'm a big podcast you know big podcast uh promoter i love i i list i it's probably the medium other than books on tape i love podcasts probably as much or more and i think they're great they're a great medium to both to convey information as well as to devour information now one thing before we get into your expertise that i i do want to this more of this a personal question not as much on the expertise but so podcasts were around for 15 years ago because i've i've i've been listening to podcasts for i don't know three or four years and i thought i was newer than that and they've grown and since then exponentially i wasn't aware that they were around 15 years ago shocking it was i think it was iphone 2 i had an iphone 2 and i realized that i think it was like a maybe it was a 3g network maybe that was cutting edge back then 2g something like that um but when it kind of clicked to me because i was downloading them and then i realized that through your cellular connection you could download the podcast it would take like an hour and a half and so i was like oh my god and you know it just started clicking because i would go through like kind of apple podcasts and and you know i was like there's podcasts about everything you know and so that became my commute you know and then i i started podcasting on that commute by just recording phone conversations with my friends because i was so lonely and publishing that publishing that as a podcast and never look back awesome well that is a that is a great introduction and uh appreciate the background so now without further ado let's dive into a little bit of podcasting so you know there's kind of in my mind and probably you know in some other people's minds kind of two different ways that you can be on just listening to podcasts and devouring it but if you're looking at it from a business sense of hey this is a new medium for me to promote myself to share information to do client generation or you know otherwise do it there's kind of two paths you can go and they're not exclusive but one is that you can go and start being guests on other podcasts you know you can either do it organically you can reach out to them you can have use your services or anything else and then there's the other side of hey you can start your own podcast to reach new audiences and to you know share information and show you off your expertise so we'll probably hit on a bit of both but on the first one if you're saying okay i'll ask the question before we split into it is you know how do you make that balance or that decision as to which path you should go where both paths are kind of if you were taking somebody that's you know in a start or kind of was a startup an entrepreneur maybe a small business and they're trying to figure out hey i only have so many hours in the day i only have so much time and resources which is the best path for me to go how would you kind of walk through that decision making you bet so path a is start your own podcast path b is going other people's podcast yep okay cool so you know uh as far as going on other people's podcasts it's a great way to validate if you like the medium um podcasting has a lot of moving parts and to publish your own podcast to launch it successfully to find guests to carve out the time it takes a lot a lot of time um it's a calling for some people i mean for talkers like us i mean we're born for this so it's great to have your own show and to do all those things becomes kind of a labor of love or a devotional practice in a sense so if you're if you're interested in it um then going on as a guest is probably a good way just to validate that it's a good source for you um caveat being that you should probably have something worthy to discuss not necessarily you know you can go on and do anything but if you are truly an expert um then it gives you a nice platform or it likes a nice kind of foundation to go on and and talk to other folks and also i think that's kind of a part of the deal there's a reciprocity that happens here because it is so difficult to publish a podcast much less build an audience base you really um are trading that expertise and value uh for the the authority and the audience of the podcast so you know i take that really seriously it's like you know i want to go on and make sure it's a good show for for podcasts i go on because i know how difficult it is to build a show no i think that's a i think that those are you hit on a lot of great points so maybe just diving into a couple one is i don't think that people get the amount of time and effort it takes to run a successful podcast or really even an unsuccessful any podcast in the sense that one you have to figure out what your podcast is going to be and that's sometimes hard i think you know yeah if you just want to get out there and to your point when you're starting chatting on your phone maybe that's an easy way to go but if you want to have something that people are going to find interesting you have to figure out one that what your topic's going to be but even two figure out something that has enough of a runway that it's not hey we'll do five episodes and then we run out of things to talk about and it's going to be a very short-lived podcast and i think that's a difficult thing but then even once you figure out the topic it's how do you find guests and you know it's how do you find people and sure you're going to reach out to your friends and your family your personal network and that will be the first few episodes but then again how do you do it then how do you then get it on the platforms and how do you produce it do you put an intro and an extra and all of those things i think that that's a very good point they're probably if you're looking to just dip your toe into it maybe you start out on other people's podcasts to one get a feel for it see if you like it see if you are good at talking or explaining things and then work your way up so yeah with that in mind let's say you did take that you know that first path which is okay i've never done a podcast i've listened to them i you know like to get my dip my toe in you know certainly can hire a service and you know similar to you as a service but what should people because there's you know i've got i've got hit up even before i started my own podcast with people that are offer the service and some of them are awesome some of them are terrible in other words you know some of them because some of them they give you such a small you know get you on podcasts that are so small so narrow and they don't have any audience and you're paying them for it that it doesn't have that return and others are doing a great job they have the network connections they do a good job of researching which ones will be for your audience and so how do you kind of figure out whether it's you guys or anybody which you know how to start getting on podcasts and should you start out trying to do yourself or hire an agency or kind of how would you get going on that front you bet so you want to go on podcasts and you probably you start reaching out to podcasts and realize it's insane amount of work too one thing about podcast producers is they're not necessarily communications professionals um which is great because it created a lane for us you know so i i think you you take an assessment of kind of what are your outcomes here what are your objectives what are you looking to do where are you in your in your entrepreneurial journey you know are you validating your product are you trying to find traction are you scaling um that's going to be a good indication of maybe the kind of service that you're looking for because you know there's other booking agencies there's you could buy you could get um a virtual assistant and things like that you know so there's there's multiple tracks and multiple things to do and kind of um perhaps just kind of checking your expectations a little bit so there's a lot of coaches out there you know um there's a lot of coaches that coach coaches how to coach coach which is building courses to coach coaches there are a lot i think i just think wait there's a lot of coaches out there that's that gets me on the whole tangent though a very small amount of good coaches and a lot of people to say they're coaches that really don't provide any value but getting back to the topic at hand so let's say okay so you know figuring it out you know basic questions should they try and do it themselves you know i know because i know there are a few ones you have pod match you have matchmaker there's another one i'm trying to think of you know there's a few of them that you can go on and you know just find podcasts that are typically smaller and i think there's a few bigger ones on there but a lot of smaller ones but you can reach out and do the work yourself and actually reach out to the podcast and you know say i want to be a guest on your show or you can go and hire you know somebody like you guys to do it on day in day out and probably have a much better network and know what to look for if you're getting out how do you should you start out doing it on your own and try and test it out or should you go dry to just hiring an expert you bet so we're going to give you kind of the highest level of service imaginable we set out to be the best in the world with this business and we most certainly are um and you pay for it too it's not an inexpensive service so you know our clients you know they raised let's say 30 million on a series a they have a sales department they have a marketing department they have film at success um they have a ceo up top and and co-founder perhaps you know so podcasting gives them an opportunity to really lead from the front they're not going to go on matchmaker and kind of piece through like people's rookie podcasts nothing that no disrespect to that at all and that's where everybody starts and that's awesome um so if you're interested in like a service like us just understand that like the kind of caliber of service you're going to get is commensurate with the kind of podcast that we're going to book now if you're let's say a self-published author or your coach and i i'm not disparaging coaches at all one thing i really love about coaches particularly new ones is just the enthusiasm and they want to help and that's that's so important and podcasting becomes an absolutely critical opportunity to test some of your ideas and and get them out there um a part of that the excitement though oftentimes can be like a mismatch in in expectations you know um when when we're working with you know let's say startup founders that raise their series a we're we're going on two tracks right we're going on the entrepreneurial journey track where they have big audiences want to hear about their crash and burn stories those kind of things and then we're going on expertise track where they have very um distinct outcomes they're looking for whether it's hiring or gaining runway or from finding prospects of course speaking technically to a niche audience you know let me ask yeah now then i think that's great or a great intro now ask a couple of questions that i'm sure people kind of have a fear so to speak or uncertainty or that is you know one is hey i don't know you know ones if they're i'm not sure what or what i'm supposed to share in other words yeah i'm you know take me as an example i'm not a good example because i've done more multiple podcasts than my own but you take someone that's an you know patent and trademark attorney and they know their expertise very well but they have they don't have no idea how to share it or how to talk about it or how to convey that information and they're not even sure what they're going to do how do they start to break is you know how do they start to break down and figure out what that niche is or how to address that or how to convey that you know one thing we offer for our clients is media training itself um what i was kind of shocked at you know i i was a host and and interviewed 300 plus people um so i you know podcasting was old hat and like you know it's like let's do some interviews but when i was on the other side of the mic you know being interviewed there was some big emotions that welled up you know from like being just just butterflies to what is this podcast i'm not good enough for this podcast or i'm too good for this podcast or just a whole myriad of different things like it comes up especially in the beginning when you're getting going so you know our media training focuses kind of on three things one would be dealing with big emotions the second would be kind of the first five minutes of that show of attracting the audience to you um by using anecdotes and kind of um allowing people into some of your thought process and some of those things so you know the first five minutes of this podcast i i kind of explained my birth into the podcast arena and it's something that i mapped out you know of like here's some stories some beats i want to hit so people will understand me as a person no and i think that that's kind of going to happen i think that's great because you know i i love podcasts i listen to a ton of them and now my son listens to a ton of them as well he loves business words and we listen to that one together um but you know you you you get drawn in but to the people and it you know if all you do is dive right into the expertise and all you do is share here are the things you need to know most of the time it's kind of boring it becomes off-putting or boring in the sense that people are saying ah they start to tune out because even though it's great information they can't really relate to the person they really really don't understand so i think that definitely makes sense so now one last question they'll hit the second track which is if they wanted to start their own podcast but before we jump over to that if they're looking to get on you know other people's podcasts and that can be let's say they hire you guys as a service they hire another service they figured out how to do it on their own what are some of the things you should be looking at as far as selecting which podcasts are good or knowing if you hire someone else that they're getting you on good podcasts because you know just getting on a podcast you know i not i'm by far not an expert but i could go and say here's an easy way you know go to matchmaker go to pod pod match and i think those are great it's where a lot of startups where podcasts start and i think it definitely does or nothing against them but you know if you're getting on a podcast that has an audience of 50 people and you're paying 500 for each podcast or whatever the amount is then you can say that return probably doesn't work unless those 50 people are really in your niche and they're really a high you know high value type of people but how do you start to understand you know if you're getting the good value whether it's doing it yourself or other people how do you select the podcast that are the good ones and how do you know that you're getting that value does that make sense 100 so you know selecting podcasts everybody basically uses apple podcasts uh categorical hierarchy so you know if you're an entrepreneur you could go business entrepreneur as a base search and then within there you search keywords to find shows and like using a service like matchmaker or um uh what is it it's great you you can search the liner notes and find relevant shows um then you know the audience size is a great consideration you know the problem is is nobody knows how do you know what the audience sizes nobody knows i know it's impossible to find out um we have vague uh ideas and we have uh ranking so you could say hey this is you know the number seven podcast and entrepreneur you you know it's quality you know they have a great audience um but the way i would start about it is to to check my expectations on the results from the podcast and themself so i'm not going to go on somebody else's podcast hoping that someone in their audience is going to resonate and then come back to me the idea that a listener is on the treadmill and they're going to get off the treadmill stop the podcast hit the link go to your website convert it while they're on in their on the treadmill it's very low you know so we really start with like hey if you get straight conversions from the publishing of this podcast that's a cherry on top but we're gonna start with the expectation that zero people are gonna convert so now it's what are you gonna do with all this content you know and there's a lot of opportunities use that in your sales and marketing funnels whether you're chopping up snippets put them in emails maybe you're using the copy for your blogs maybe you're using the copy for social media and creating audiograms and artwork like the the the you know let's say you go on 10 podcasts you got 10 hours of content you know this becomes invaluable source because one writing is insanely hard but also you know how to insert the right messaging to people in various stages of your sales pipeline so if if you know what to do with the content then you're going to have a great time with podcasting if you're just rubbing your hands together hoping to hit a hail mary that someone's going to give you a million dollars in financing because you went on a show it's not going to happen no i think that's all great points and i think you know expectation i think even figuring out what you can do the content's a good one and also the expectations it's you know kind of with most marketing it's a build in other words you're getting your name out there you're promoting yourself people are hearing you a lot of times if you're hearing you know if you listen to one business podcast you're all oftentimes listening to multiple ones and it's also kind of that hearing you multiple times is a great way to get exposure so yeah we'll put a pin in that just for now and i'm sure we could talk about that for a very long amount of time and it would be it'd be a great conversation but let's shift over to the other lane just for a minute or the other channel which is now let's say i do want to start my own podcast so i'm on the other side and i said okay whether or not i've been on other people's or you know maybe i have and i've decided i want to do my own or i just want to dive in and i want to get going or have a great day whatever that is what if you're wanting to get going what are the kind of the first few things that people should consider how do you get going how do you figure that out okay so and i super encourage everybody to do this um some people you just take to it it's so fun having a podcast and you should really do it but when you're getting into it no one it's more work than you think and it's a lot of work um and then the other is know that you're probably gonna be painfully self-conscious about a myriad of different things the sound of your voice all the weird um's and uh and filler works that you use oh i hate that that's why it was this is a complete aside i used to i used to listen to my own podcast and it wasn't because i didn't know what i was i was on there so i knew what the content was but i used to figure i figured out that you say a whole bunch and it was breaking it was so many and it's not bad to have a one but it was like i was listening like this is driving me nuts and so i had to be i had to figure that out so i completely agree with you that there is that learning curve but go ahead yeah you you you're definitely gonna think you suck it's gonna it's gonna be humbling um but you're much better than you think you are you know and so understand that um that's coming up that's going to come up emotionally in the beginning um you're also going to run into paralysis by analysis you know uh should i should i edit all those um's out should i need more music i need a i need two sponsors i need to get my the the the uh bumpers on my episode there's gonna be all these things i need a better microphone i need a preamp i need to know how to use the software um all these things are going to interrupt the the creative process so one thing i like to recommend is record five episodes on your phone don't spend any money you know get you get five of your friends colleagues co-workers whoever interview them and record it on your phone um if you've got an iphone or samsung part of me they have great microphones you know and you'll get a really high quality recording that you could publish later if you wanted to but this was kind of a low barrier of entry to see if you like doing this kind of thing um what you might discover is that like when you hit record with somebody and you have their undivided attention it's magical you know no one's looking at their phones like you're sucked into this conversation and it's really exciting you know so now you've got five podcast episodes in the can and now you can start to make a decision if you'd like to take a next step once you make that next step and you get your microphone you get all your lighting you get your desk set up you got your website you got you're ready to go um just avoid judging the podcast harshly you know tell yourself i'm not going to judge this podcast until my hundredth episode until i get there i'm just going to put out content um and in that process you're going to get better in all kinds of different ways you didn't even think of the thing that kills most podcasts is people just get too self-conscious with it and they they they're the delta of where they are and where they want to go just seems too high to climb you know so just keep doing it it's like nobody's listening to my podcast doesn't matter record another one you know i don't have the right cover art doesn't matter just record another one keep going keep going get to that 100th episode and you're going to have domain expertise in all kinds of different ways you didn't even expect i i think that's a ton of great advice and a lot of things in there now one question that i've had and i'm hope guessing others have had is it better and i don't know there is a better or not but i'll ask it anyway is it better to have guests on your you know guess on and have people come onto your podcast or should you do you do it yourself or is there a mixture of it because you know all this is some podcast and the person does great and they just talk for 30 minutes and other times they have guests on and you have you know kind of like what we're doing in conversation back and forth so is it more of what you feel comfortable with or how do you make that decision as to should you get gas or just talk yourself oh man if you can monologue like that then you should do that that the bill burr thing man that is incredibly hard just to like open up a microphone and just start going if you can do that do that um uh guests are much easier because we're all experts at talking to each other and and podcasts are charming because of their kind of like uh amateurism you know so if you're a decent person then you've just been kind of talking to people all the time so it's it's not hard and and it makes the time go longer and it also gives you opportunity to develop your skills as a journalist and get information from people and have them expand on things and and learn how to listen and how to interject which are very valuable skills i think that crosses over and all kinds of different stuff so i mean getting guests is going to be way easier for sure now now i'm going to follow up with how do i how do so i think guests are easier in the sense that make much easier to have a conversation fill in the time probably have a bit more interesting dialogue unless you have that personality you can just talk and be insightful and interesting now how do you go about getting guests in other words let's say okay one i've got my whatever podcast art i figured out what platform i'm going to use i've got my microphone or my phone there and i've got the topics are you know kind of my niche now how do i find guess you know beyond the friends and family or the first five people or ten people that i can reach out they'll do it to me just as a favor but how do you how do you consistently find guests you bet so if you're looking for like those uh match services might be a great place you know it depends on what the focus of your show is um if you're looking for like higher level folks there's a lot of firewalls to get to them sometimes but particularly if you have a an interesting podcast angle you know which is also kind of a consideration when you're building your show like how can i stand out how is my show going to be unique in a way that i can attract the kind of guests that i want on the show um so you know the matchmaking services are fantastic especially when you're getting getting warmed up once you feel pretty confident about your journalism skills you know use social channels you know go and go into linkedin see if you can grab somebody um hit somebody on twitter you know if you can especially if you can kind of come with a give first kind of mentality you follow them on twitter maybe you make a couple of comments on some of their posts um same thing with linkedin offer them something for free first and then just ask politely and oftentimes you know that's going to get you the result that you want all right no and i think that that is a great advice and i've used any and all the above and different phases and you know going to those matchmakers going to social networks going to your friends and family and everything else and i think to your point the best thing is just to get going on it because that's your biggest barrier and it's you know you see how many up or podcasts have five or 10 or maybe 15 episodes and then they simply dwindle out and i think having that just get going is probably kind of the consistent takeaway yeah a couple more questions that i have one is i you know i've seen it done both ways and i have my own opinions about last year's first is some podcasts charge you to come on and be a guest on the podcast and others are doing it for free if you're starting your own you know let's say you've been out you've done it for six months you're starting to get some traction should you start charging guests to come on or should you do it for free or is there a best practice or does it just depend too much i think it depends on a lot of things um there's people that charge for podcasts and it's a great value there's other people that charge for podcasts and you know if it's fun for you spend the money um there there's it what's cool about podcasts it is still the wild west and everyone's figuring out different ways to monetize and i think it's important to attach a financial component to your podcast it'll make it more sticky especially if it's earning earning you some cash so charging for a podcast guest the folks that i see do it really successfully have gigantic audiences in their very specific niche for example there's a podcast called we study billionaires and i think they have like 1.2 million verified downloads per month and it'll cost you 11 grand to go on that show so you don't have to be a billionaire you just have to have eleven thousand dollars [Laughter] fairly well off in order to do that but yeah maybe you do need a billion i don't know um but you know for that that could be perfect for what you're trying to do you know um perhaps i i don't know tim ferriss you know if you want to sponsor one of his episodes it's about 40 grand and you have to commit to three episodes you know but you know he's got a gigantic influential uh audience you know you could go on there spend what is 120k on sponsoring three episodes and sell out of your entire product so it it it really depends if your your podcast host you want to charge and you don't have anything for um an audience you want to make sure the production value is really good and maybe offer some kind of take home you know if it's like hey we're going to cut these videos you're going to have three marketing videos you know we charge you a thousand bucks or something to be on the show that could be totally worth it you know um as far as like producing video producing content it's much easier to do it in podcast form because you're comfortable there's not a production team in front of you and you're not thinking about what you need to do with your hands you know so you you could get so you can give value through um perhaps providing them with marketing assets from the podcast that's definitely a way to go you know so charge for the podcast you know find advertising opportunities um sponsorship affiliate links there's a lot of different ways to to to kind of monetize your show but really from a podcast standpoint where it's really going to kick in is having that audience you know if you've got 10 000 to 20 000 verifiable monthly downloads you're gonna get some pretty good sponsorship opportunities um so that's a steep mountain to climb or consistent amount of people that are downloading it on a frequent basis and listening it's it's not easy so it's not easy yeah now last question i always try not to say last questions i always have a whole bunch but i'll try and make this my last question before our final question at the end of the episode podcast length which is is it one sentence is a dumb question yet i think is one that everybody has is should i go five minutes and do a short snippet should i go 90 minutes and give a whole bunch of information or should i go in between how do you figure out how long to do your podcast i like the long form personally i like the long form podcast you know you go 30 minutes you go 60 90 minutes you find a natural pace and rhythm you know there can be a little bit of a urgency if you have a shorter show of like i'm trying to get through my my top five questions or or something like that and you get somebody who's particularly verbose and they go on you feel that that clock ticking to me it's just not as fun um there's no you know there's no consider i mean the most popular podcast in the world rogan is three hours an episode you know so the longer it is people can kind of space out tune back into something there's nothing no urgent beats to get to if you're doing that but one the other thing is like if you're doing a daily show then maybe make that short you know if you're a news guy or you're a tech news guy or something like that where you just have like little snippets little beats you know where you kind of fit into this rhythm in somebody's life then that's that that would be a cool show too no and i like that and i'm i'm probably i agree with you if i if i if there's a podcast under 10 minutes it feels like i don't even get the value out of it because there isn't enough information conveyed within that time by time if they have sponsored an intro and an extra it's like i've listened for five i listened for ads for five minutes and i got five minutes of information and now i i was only paying attention for half of that so i got like two and a half minutes of information so no i i think that the the longer form plus it's a lot more natural i think is your point you're not you're not rushed and you know i don't think that if you are about a 30 minute and you go 35 minutes nobody's gonna care or if you go 26 minutes instead of 30 it's i think there's a bit of flexibility and variability variability to that yeah well and also i mean half the reason i'm listening to a podcast because i don't want to fiddle with my phone or whatever you know it's like i just want to hit play and not worry about it but 10 minutes later and hit play and not have to worry about what's the next podcast so i love it so well as we are now wrapping up towards the end of this podcast i always have one question i asked at the end of each expert episode which is so you're talking to startup you're talking to a small business and they you know they listen to this episode they've got a whole bunch of great information and they're saying okay now i'm overwhelmed there's a whole bunch of things i could do what do i do if you're gonna give them just one take away one thing to get started on what would that be just reiterate uh the point i already made you know record five episodes with your buddies on your phone if you like it take the next step i love it and i think that that is probably just get started do that record an episode see if you like it see if it works well and then or figure it out from there so i think that's great piece of advice well if people are listening to saying oh i'd love to get going i'd love to be a guest on a podcast or i want help getting a podcast going and they want to reach out to you they want to get more information whether they want to be a customer client they want to be an employee they want to say that's a great place to work or they want to be an investor and say i want to put a whole bunch of money into them to make it great any or all the or they just want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to reach out to you contact you find out more well i'll tell you what if you want to give us a big bucket of money then you will be my best friend just kidding have enough money my friends we're a bootstrap company but hey i'm always interested in having that conversation um we're also hiring we're we're going to add probably uh three or four more agents by the end of the year if this sounds like interesting work definitely reach out um kitcaster.com is a great place to learn about the team learn about our services i'm happy to speak with you directly if you want to email me it's just estes at kitcaster.com um and happy to talk to anybody who has any questions about uh podcasting want some encouragement um i'm always open to to have podcast eat conversations well i definitely encourage any and all the about and if you have that big bucket of money you can buy it come find that workout great but i appreciate that's right i appreciate you coming on appreciate you can or sharing a ton of great information certainly i one i think is a great a great platform to uh to help grow your business and definitely useful for a lot of starters and small businesses now with that said if uh if any of the guests on here would like to be a guest on the podcast if you'd like to come on the show and share your journey or your expertise feel free to go to inventiveguest.com apply to be on the show two more things as a listener one make sure to click subscribe and your podcast players so you know when all of our awesome episodes come out and to leave us a review so everybody else can find out about all of our awesome episodes last but not least if you ever need help with patents trademarks anything else go to strategymeeting.com grab some time with me in a chat thank you again ryan for coming on the podcast and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last devin thank you so much i appreciate what you do with if you didn't do what you do i couldn't do what i do so thank you absolutely you