Expert Advice - How To Strengthen Your Marriage Family & Work Life

 Expert Advice

How To Strengthen Your Marriage Family & Work Life

Jen Schwartz

Devin Miller
The Inventive Journey - Expert Advice
Podcast for Entrepreneurs

8/13/2020

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How To Strengthen Your Marriage Family & Work Life

 “It takes a lot to have a strong foundation in your marriage. And when you have got the added stress. You know, having a start up is a lot like having a child. It's a lot of work, its a lot of energy, it's a lot of focus. You know, When the baby cries you have to handle it. And when the start up cries you cant really just put it aside for a couple of weeks until it feels like the right time, or you will never get where your trying to get."


The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

ai generated transcription

uh it takes a lot to have a strong foundation in your marriage and when you've got the added stress of you know having a startup is a lot like having a child it's a lot of work it's a lot of energy it's a lot of focus um you know when the baby cries you have to handle it and when the startup cries you can't really just put it aside for a couple weeks until it feels like a good time or you'll never get where you're trying to get hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur has grown several startups to seven and eight figure companies as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and uh on today's journey we have a bit of a different uh journey to talk through a bit of a different episode so typically we go through the uh the journey that's uh different founders and co-founders or go through as they do startups and small businesses but today we're gonna switch topics just a little bit and have a special episode with uh jen schwartz and i'll let her introduce herself in just a minute um but we thought one thing that a lot of startups and small businesses often face is you know you have a lot of time and effort into getting into a startup you have to put in whether it's time in the office and thought process and being engaged or having your mind somewhere else as well as putting in money and just doing all those things in order to get a startup going it can be sometimes a straight honor marriage or it can be difficult to keep a strong marriage and so this this episode with jen she is a marriage and family therapist we're going to talk through a few ideas and ways and and things to think about in order to keep a strong marriage as you're trying to uh to go through and do your startup and make your business successful and put in all of your time and effort making sure your marriage doesn't fall apart your family still sees your wife still loves you and your kids are still there so with that introduction welcome on to the podcast jen thank you thank you so i gave a very brief overview of yourself but maybe tell everybody a little bit about yourself what your practice what you do and then we'll kind of dive into a bit more on the how to keep a strong marriage sure so as you said my name is jen schwartz um i have a doctorate in transformational psychology and i'm also a certified family life educator so i work a lot with couples and families i also work with adults and children and teens in a lot of different capacities but it just one of the reasons i love this conversation in particular is because i have experience on both sides of it so i've started several businesses i've also been the spouse of people starting businesses um and i've got of course all my breadth of knowledge on just families and relationships in general and how to create strong marriages and keep them that way um so i can kind of speak from both sides of it actually i just said three sides right i can speak from all three sides of it uh i know what it's like to be the sort of the the widow of the business at home and feel like your spouse is out all the time and i know what it's like to be that person who's out there doing the drive and uh taking the time and energy outside of the house as well okay um and you know in my practice we focus on a lot of different things but i definitely um have clients where this kind of dynamic is an issue and so i've got some experience working with clients where they've got entrepreneurs in the family either spouse it's not always the husbands although it does tend to be for the most part but sometimes it's the wife who's out starting a new business and doing a new thing and um and you know it does take something and it takes something to have a strong marriage period it doesn't matter even if you just have both regular 40-hour a week jobs or one-person dozen ones at home it takes a lot to have a strong foundation in your marriage and when you've got the added stress of you know having a startup is a lot like having a child it's a lot of work it's a lot of energy it's a lot of focus um you know when the baby cries you have to handle it and when the startup cries you can't really just put it aside for a couple weeks until it feels like a good time or you'll never get where you're trying to get so there's a lot of parallels to uh to family life in business startup life as well no i think that first of all i think that it certainly is helpful to have someone that's been through it themselves as well as have spouses and otherwise and i think that to your point i mean i agree i think that a good and strong marriage takes a lot of work no matter what and even when i was before i got into a lot of startups and that i've done and was working more of a nine-to-five job it still takes a lot of work and then putting on that added stress you know an employee calls you at seven or eight or you know something else and says that they're sick for the next day or that they can't do something or that they have a question it's hard to you know kind of add to added layers stress not to mention sometimes even you're at home your mind tends to wander back to the issues that are off at the office or the things you have to get done the next day so i think that adds that so i have a few questions but maybe before i jump into my questions what would be the number one thing or the the thing if you were to pick it i know it's hard to pick one because it's not just a quick solution right you're saying hey somebody that's just getting into a startup or small businesses just getting going what would be the one thing that you'd want them to consider or think about in order to keep their marriage strong well i think um probably the fundamental thing is looking at what are the agreements of your marriage and when i say that you know when i work with couples in particular that's one of the first questions i always ask them what agreements do you have in your marriage and mostly people look at me first like i have three heads when i say that because most couples haven't had a conversation about that most couples don't have a set of agreements that they've sat down talked about compromised on agreed upon have it written down and it's like a contract in their relationship now there's those understood agreements we all have right if you get married there's some agreements like i'm not going to just move to france without you that's we don't have to talk about that that's understood right i'm not going to go start another relationship because i'm married to you doing that obviously is outside nope do we lose you hello oh there we go there we go i was gonna go see if i had to restart something that's weird so yeah i have no idea what happened i looked and everything seemed to be okay but it just launched itself back up okay all right so we're back we'll back up rewind so we're talking about the looking at three-headed having the um relationship and and what the agreements are in your place and then for some reason it went slightly haywire so let's rewind back to that and we'll go through that one more time sure so uh what i was saying is um you know most couples don't have spoken or written agreements like a contract in their relationship and um i always find it interesting because when i get couples talking about well okay what do you think your agreements are um they're very rarely saying the same thing so you know there there are some things and you know we sort of default to things right like when my children were very young i had said i wanted to stay home with them and so the we defaulted to this world of my husband's out making money and i'm at home with children and in general that worked really well for us it wouldn't work well for everyone but for us it did but inside that there were a lot of things that we didn't talk about like how much time was he then gonna spend at home with me and the children right um what was it what was i agreeing to do i was agreeing to take care of children that was that was what i was doing but i wasn't necessarily agreeing to also take care of the house and the yard and the dog and that right the whole list of everything else that there is at life just because my husband was out making money so um you know when people start talking about what those agreements are this it's a long process of getting really clear or it can be a long process of getting clear what are we really promising to each other and you know there can be really basic fundamental promises like i promise to bring home at least x amount of dollars every month and you know i promise to make sure there's food in the house but it goes beyond those things um when my husband and i first got together we had we both had children from our previous marriage and one of our early agreements in our relationship was that we both promised to be kind to one another's children and you know like on the one hand why would you have to talk about that and write it down that's like basic human decency that we're gonna be kind to each other's children right but we found that and and this is just you know true of families blending families takes a lot of work and so having some lengthy conversations about here's what i when i say be kind here's what i mean and um and then promising that that's how we would interact with each other's children that was a really important agreement for us to have now we've been together for 11 years we have a seven-year-old son together as well as all of our children you know four of whom are adults now and that's not on our list of agreements anymore because it's so fundamental to who we are and our family has we put a lot of work into blending our family in a really powerful way that we don't have to have that there anymore as something that we talk about and need to focus on so but we do have a promise that says that we will parent with love and compassion so you can see it's very much the same in certain ways and yet it's evolved over time so get back to the very basic part of the question you have to have agreements in your relationship just like any business contract you would have um a great tool for doing that by the way there's a book called eight dates by the gottmans um the gottmans are like the gurus of marriage and relationship in the world if you haven't heard of them and um they actually have capacity to predict they can spend about two to three hours with you and they can predict out of those two to three hours within 90 accuracy if you'll still be married in five years it's a really i mean that's how much work they've done with marriages and in their book eight dates what they do is they walk through eight conversations where you sit down with each other and you ask these questions and talk about things that most couples never talk about um one of the one of the dates is about money right which relates directly to business and it's questions like what does it mean to us to have enough what are our goals around money how do we intend to make that money and also digging into the past how did you grow up because if you grew up where you know daddy went to work and made a ton of money and you never had to think about things your relationship to money and business is very different than if you grew up like i did with a single mom who worked two and three jobs at a time so maybe on that jumping to that kind of that question so if you're talking about money because you know that's oftentimes a difficult thing with startups right i don't know at least it's an issue right so a lot of times if you want to do a startup one thing is you're having to bootstrap right or you may be different savings in order to get things going what the hope or anticipation of things will pick up or you know you go and get a credit card and max and i'm not saying all these are good ideas but this certainly happened but they happened yes so how do you deal with that if you're wanting to get a startup or going and you're saying hey we may take a dip in income or should we dip into our savings or should we go and take out a debt which you know second mortgage on the home or how do you approach that with a spouse and i'm sure it's different depending on you know your spouse but how do you bring that up or how do you deal with that because i can certainly see if you're saying hey we've got and i'm just making them or three hundred thousand dollars saved and now i'm gonna go spend 150 000 to chase my dream and get a startup that you know the other spouse's other you know gender and you mentioned kind of generally women versus men a lot of times it seems like women want the financial security that you know that you have some savings you have some money set aside for any day so how do you make that balance or make that or deal with that issue yeah well i mean you really said it already which is that's really gonna depend on the people involved right everybody's got different experiences around that but i think so much of it is just about communicating you know if if it is i mean the example you used right i want to use half of our savings to go do this thing well if you're using half of the savings that means half of it's still there so you're not saying i want to take the whole 300 000 and leave us with nothing right um so you're coming to the table with a an idea that kind of helps both sides it gives you the opportunity to go and take this risk and make this dream happen but it also still leaves some security there and some stability and then the really important thing is if you get to an agreement with that and maybe the agreement is okay i don't feel with a half but why don't you take a third take a third of it take just a hundred thousand and leave 200 000 in that account right um so you get to that compromise and then what often happens with startups is you blow through that hundred thousand dollars and you're not there yet and you need more right you anticipated my next question so that's what i was gonna ask right exactly so then when you get to that point or close hopefully before you get to that point right it's what it takes is another conversation and willingness on both parts to do some compromising um but also to not overstep the comfort level of the person who wants the security because i think that's a really good way to erode some foundation really fast right so if i'm the one who needs that financial stability and in my relationship i am that person and as you said it typically is you know women typically want that more and men tend to be more of the risk takers um if i don't have that it it really it's not just like eroding a foundation it really is like my whole world gets rocked right and if my whole world's rocked i can't then support my husband because i don't have it i don't have the energy left i don't have the space left to support him if i don't feel like i have that stability that i need so you know i think a good thing to do then in the beginning is to say okay whatever we've compromised on is this what's the backup plan if it's not enough right and and part of the backup plan has to be that we'll communicate about it at that point unfortunately what i've seen happen many times um and my ex-husband was guilty of this not to call him out i won't say his name but um is to get to that point and then go okay well i'll just do this thing over here and i won't mention it and hopefully it'll all turn out all right um and you know even if it does turn out all right you know even if you come back later and you're like look remember that 100 000 agreement we had well i went and took a 50 000 line of credit because it wasn't enough and it's all fine i've paid it back and we're in good shape even then you've got this huge lie that was present your relationship for however long of time that was um and that's not good for marriages either so i think so much of it is being up front being clear and having the tough conversations um and you know they they can be really hard to have and sometimes the best thing to do is to have someone else there with you whether that's a counselor a therapist a mediator or just a good friend who's not really um you know not bought into the business right not your business partner because then you've got your spouse feeling ganged up on um and not your parents or their parents but somebody who's really neutral who can be there and listen and help help things be heard yeah and kind of online and i think that that's great their thoughts and advice if you do because i mean i i can imagine and i'm usually on the side of more of the risk although i'm financially pretty conservative i don't like to do anything on dad or dive into anything so i kind of straddled but on the risk age i'm probably at least wanting to do startups and wanting to take on those challenges but you know i could see that the a spouse you know so let's say you have these conversations right you get through the hundred thousand and hundred thousands not enough startups typically take longer they take more money you didn't you know things come up and so you're saying hey i thought i could get it done for this but i can and you do that then the the spouse doesn't want you to who doesn't want you to give up on your dreams or doesn't want you know want to be the bad guy who doesn't want that so sometimes they'll even if they're not fully on board they'll act the supportive role right or they'll say okay let's do this or you know that makes sense for that so how do you not just you know how do you deal with the actual issue of hey i'm not comfortable i don't want to dive further into our savings than that and yet be the supportive spouse or be the person that isn't trying to be the dream killer or create issues right you know how do you make that balance yeah i mean what you're talking about is really creating a relationship where everybody always feels safe saying what they need to say and that is you know first of all that's a pipe dream right when i say always feel safe that's never going to happen but if you create a foundation in your relationship where there's always space for communication um it it's easier to have those kind of conversations so then the question is how do you do that right how do you do that um first of all you have to have honesty and transparency in your relationship you just do from the beginning now if you didn't have that from the beginning it can still get created um one really great exercise to do is this thing and we do this in our family with my husband and i'll do it with each other about once a year we found this enough and we'll do it with the kids from time to time as well is we have these conversations called our amnesty talks and basically you know we say okay we're gonna have our amnesty talk and during this time whatever you know 30 minutes or an hour or whatever much time we've set aside i can tell you anything and you promise that you're not going to be angry hold a grudge um get revenge uh you can't divorce me over it right like whatever i have to say now that doesn't mean that you might not have a reaction right so if i came home and told my husband oh yeah by the way i took out a 50 000 line of credit um as part of that amnesty conversation he's going to have a reaction he's going to feel upset betrayed whatever those emotions are for him but the agreement then is that we work it out in that conversation so that when that time period is up we move on with nothing nothing left unsaid between each other um it's a really useful conversation to have even if you don't feel like there's anything big that you need to divulge just having those every now and then you know i have this thing i used to do and i think it was from growing up in poverty right and then i you know when i got married the first time i there was quite a bit of money available in my life for the first time but i felt guilty about spending it so oftentimes i would do something i would you know i'd go buy clothes for the kids and i'd spend say a hundred dollars and i'd come home and and my husband would be like oh that's really cool and i would say yeah and i only spent 75 dollars on it and it was just like in a way like these little white lies right it's not like i was spending ten thousand dollars and not telling him but i would always just downplay the cost a little bit and i don't even know why specifically i felt like that was necessary but i would do it and i did it for years until i finally realized i was doing it so in those amnesty conversations that was one of the first things that would come out you know it doesn't anymore because like it's something i've i've moved past but that was one of the things that i would say i'd say yeah remember i told you i spent you know 200 on the new such and such it was actually three and you know my husband wasn't upset by that he wasn't angry about it but i had it feel you know there's that that weight of that for me that i was able to let go of so having those conversations really important and the great thing about them is if you can do it once and really keep the promise of i won't be angry i'm not going to get revenge i'm not going to punish you for it you know mentally or in any other way if you can really keep that it becomes more and more freeing to have those conversations um and things can come out that you thought i'm never gonna tell that one right and and eventually you get to a point where there's just nothing between you because you know that everything can be said and it doesn't have to wait for that amnesty conversation it can be said when it needs to be said no that's interesting good advice i think that's certainly something that uh i'll have to or have to implement because you know and it's not that i'm we hide much we're pretty open but it's just you know it's just there's always a bit of that if you did something there's a fear of repercussion or fear that they're going to get mad and it could be something stupid or trivial that they're really not going to even care about when you make it a bigger deal in your mind or it could be something big but then you're scared that you don't want to let disappoint them or let them down or you want to hide it so i think that's good so okay now i'm going to switch gears to another question and we could dive onto that question for much deeper so one question i think we talked about just a little bit before the the podcast was you know so you get a fairly wide spectrum of spouses that you know in on either side whether it's the man or the woman whoever's in the startup of the other spouse wanting to be involved or not wanting to be involved right i'll kind of give you the two extremes that i know of one is myself and that's me and my wife and um is that she doesn't have and i don't fault her and i we've absolutely i'm absolutely respectful and supportive of it she doesn't have any desire to be an entrepreneur or to be in a startup right she just you know she doesn't she if she works right now she's a stay-at-home mom has four kids keep her plenty busy um before that she worked she liked working she was a nurse she worked for nine to five and she liked the go to work be able to do your job come home you don't have to worry about anything else and you can just have that time that you work and the time that you don't i like to keep this effort so she doesn't have much of an entrepreneur body or bone in her body but she you know she's a great mom and a good worker on the other hand i'm just the opposite of you know i'm always thinking of my next startup my next thing i want to do my next project and so we've had to you know kind of we not that we keep it separate but you know she's supportive she listens she is there but she i don't involve her i don't say hey why don't you come work for my startup or why don't you be an employee or do you want to show me because she doesn't want to and i try and be respectful that and then on the other extreme i you know i know on the different podcast episode we had somebody to come on that they were on their third or fourth startup they've done as a couple together and kudos to them because i think we would end up fighting to kill each other but you know they've done it where they enjoyed it and they loved it and they worked together and they worked well but how do you gauge you know if you're getting into a startup or small business or just starting out how do you figure out you know what level of involvement your spouse is and to keep her involved to that level so that she still feels involved but you're not you're not asking her to come in and do work when she doesn't want to or not shutting her shutting her out when she wants to be involved yeah well i mean you start by asking right just asking that question how involved do you want to be um do you want to be involved at all is this something that you're interested in right and then i think from there you know depending on what what the answer is um you're always going to have to adjust so even if they say like you just said your your wife just really isn't interested she wants you to go do it and she's gonna do her thing and you know then you'll get together when you get together and have fun with the kids right um and and i think that's you know sometimes that is the reality sometimes the spouse does not want any anything to do with it but here's an interesting thing like from a contextual uh way to relate to it so my husband and i each have our own business he's a contractor and i have my my private practice and in very practical ways we are we are not involved at all in each other's businesses right he doesn't see my clients he doesn't do my bookkeeping i don't come frame walls for him right we're not not really involved and we a couple years ago we had a conversation and we shifted how we talk about our businesses which is that we have two businesses instead of i have mine and he has his so even though it didn't change anything about the way we run our businesses or the level at which we were involved it gave us a sense of ownership so even with you know the case in your marriage you know we if your wife is out there saying oh yeah my husband has all these businesses that's different than her saying yeah well we have these many businesses and we have this and this and this um how do you get there well again that's just a conversation too right to say hey i want this to be an us conversations instead of a me and you conversation and really see where is the buy-in in it um and then i think also you know even if you do have a spouse who really doesn't says they don't want to be involved i think there's always you know and it's part of getting that buy-in there's always little things where a spouse can be involved so you know for me when i started looking at offices to open my private practice i asked my husband to come with me and i asked him to come with me first of all because i wanted him to have that buy-in right it was an opportunity for us to spend a few hours together for a couple days um over a couple weeks you know as we were looking at spaces and but also because he is a contractor so he could look at the spaces and say and i could say you know would we be able to put a wall there and he could say oh yeah that'd be easy or no but you if you put it over here that might work or you can't take that one down or i notice the lights are flickering right he's gonna have all of that contractor side of things um and you know likewise with his business he was never really good at the bookkeeping side of things and so i've been able to because i have been running businesses for over 20 years myself i was able to teach him a few things that made that side easier for him um and so i think even with a spouse who really doesn't want to be involved at all at least that's what they say if you have little bitty things like hey we're repainting the office and you're really good with design what do you think about this color you've just suddenly given your spouse an opportunity to have a tiny bit of ownership in what you're doing and while it might not seem like much it might not seem significant it does give them a little buy-in because then if they stop by the office they're like oh look how pretty this color is that i picked up right you know and just kidding i think that's interesting and i think that's interesting and i and i say my spouse doesn't want to be bald at all is i i think to some degree you're going to talk about what you're passionate and love and enjoy so she gets to hear about it whether she wants to or not absolutely hey you know if i have a crappy day at work and i say you know i was having this issue with this and i'm making it up because you know this issue with this employee or this customer didn't do what this or whatever you know you have to have to bend someone you've been to someone and they get to hear about or you know excitement this one well but even that like you know the other day we do a weekly newsletter and part of the you know um the podcast that go on that and said you know i really don't like the the logo that you use for the podcast and you know it's just that little thing he's like you ever thought about changing it and then i thought about i'm like i've thought about changing it and we talked about it and got our input and you know now we're coming out with the new logo and we just launched a new logo so but i think it was even that little thing of hey you know she gave a little bit of a thought and input and i think to your point whether or not it mattered a great deal of whether or not we changed the logo maybe it does maybe it doesn't we'll see but i think it was one where her little way of being involved giving the input made it feel like you know she was involved with the company is heard and now the next time the newsletter goes out and she sees it she's like oh yeah he made that change and he's heard in that so i i like the idea of at least finding different if nothing else little ways or ways to be or keep them involved and certainly if they're working with you and they're involved on a day-to-day basis that's a different conversation but i think at least you know letting figuring out what they can contribute or how they can be involved and be heard and i think that's a great way to strengthen the marriage around the business even if they don't want to be actively involved with the business yeah well and i think you know when you then look at the other the other extreme like you said you had a couple on who had done these startups together right um and my husband and i have had had times where we really were working together on projects um business projects obviously we were together at home too right but but actually working on business projects together and you know one important thing is learning how your partner works um one of the things we discovered was you know we so we had an issue we had built this uh uh ramp for accessibility on a building and uh the city came over and said well you have to do this and this and this and they hadn't told us that the first time right because that's how that goes then they came over and added a bunch of stuff and really with what we'd already done it was looking almost impossible so my way of handling that is i jump right in and go okay how are we going to solve this problem my husband's way of handling that is let me complain about it for about 20 minutes until i've said all these nasty things that i need to say and then i'm going to solve the problem and as you can imagine you know when we started to when we were first doing that and not realizing that was the dynamic we would run into conflict because you know in that particular case i said well what if we whatever my suggestion was at the time and his response was we can't do that because blah blah blah blah blah blah right because he hadn't had his time to say the nasty stuff yet um and once we saw that dynamic we were actually in couples therapy at the time because we were having such a struggle working together and we had about four months so it was going to be all day every day and so from you know after about two weeks in i was like we're gonna need some support here so as soon as we saw that dynamic the next time we had an issue i just stopped talking let him do his thing and run through it all and as soon as it was clear that he was starting to problem solve then i was able to say okay here's my idea until we came up with something that worked um so you know learning those ways that each person works and problem solves and comes up with ideas and expresses ideas and you know you can only usually learn those things through trial and error right something happens it doesn't go well um but then taking the time to process it together with or without support depending on what's needed is really important so that you know the next time you have a problem uh you can move through it more smoothly knowing what the other person needs yeah almost post-mortem on why that didn't work and what we can do and figure out what makes sense so exactly well we're running towards the end of the podcast trying to keep in about 30 minutes and there's about 20 more fun things i'm sure that people who want to talk about are here and everything else we'll have to have you back on another time and and chat more on uh keeping marriage strong but as we wrap up um you know what is if people are wanting to get a hold of you wanting to get involved whether it's you know they have and i always you know always maybe it's just me i always have the connotation if you go into a therapist it means that your marriage is broken and you want to fix it and you know that kind of thing but i also think there's a place that hey let's keep a marriage stronger avoid the issues and keep it up front and they're making our marriage even better and that whatever you know whatever bucket they lie in if they're wanting to get into startup and saying hey how can i avoid the pitfalls that others make or saying hey startup is putting a lot of strain on our marriage how do we get this back on track what's the best way to get uh to reach out to you to get involved and get engaged with you absolutely so my business is third eye family solutions that's t-h-i-r-d-e-y-e as in your third eye and a third set of eyes in your relationship um and so thirdeye familysolutions.com is our website there's a button on there where you can click and get a free consultation with me like up to 30 minutes and we just discuss what's going on and see if it's something that we can support you with i do have another therapist who works with me and we work in different ways so i'm able through those consultations to see and say oh yeah definitely work with me or no you should go work with jamie um so that's the easiest way and i also have a podcast myself it's called some of the answers and it's available on all the typical podcast platforms um i haven't talked specifically about businesses or startups but we do talk a lot about relationships and how to create extraordinary relationships and a lot about families and parenting as well so those are the easiest ways or you can also just email me at thirdeyefamilysolutions gmail.com and we can talk that way too all right well for all those listeners that are wanting to get or get their marriage back on track fix their marriage get it strengthened or even make it better or wanting to get the uh the pitfalls and the advice before you jump in onto a startup certainly um invite them to go to the the website shoot an email and listen to your podcast thanks again for coming on it was fun to talk through it was some great advice and hopefully that everybody that's in the the startup realm and wanting to er already in the in the trenches or wanting to get in the trenches they've got learned some great things um as as always for those of you that are wanting to come on and tell your inventive journey um you're welcome to go to apply at adventistjourneyguest.com and uh for those of you that are listeners make sure to subscribe so that you can hear all the new episodes including this one and if you need any help with uh patents and trademarks feel free to reach out to us and we're happy to help thanks again for coming on it was a pleasure and fun to talk through and uh good luck uh helping everybody to continue to have strong marriages great thank you devon [Music] English (auto-generated) All Recently uploaded

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