Start Out As A Side Hustle
The Inventive Journey
Podcast for Entrepreneurs
Start Out As A Side HustleI'm a huge fan of side projects and side hustles so to speak. Before you decide to change your life, quit your job, or take money out of your 401 K, try to get one customer. Try to just do one thing. Try to validate the idea in a number of different ways.
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The Inventive Journey
Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.
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huge fan of of side projects and side hustles so to speak you know before you decide to to change your life and quit your job or or you know take money out of your 401k like try to get one customer you know try to try to just do one thing try to try to validate the idea in in a number of different ways before before you decide to you know kind of bet the farm on things so [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that has uh grown several startups into seven and eight-figure businesses as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we helped startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and today we have another great guest on the podcast jeremy hearst and uh jeremy this is a way of a bit of an introduction so he was he's did his undergraduate at nyu studying marketing and came out of school and wasn't sure what he wanted to do he did know that he didn't want to work at a desk every day so he decided hey i'll go into sales and so i'm not just at my desk every day so i went and worked for a t for a period of time doing some of their corporate sales um had a at the same time you had a lot of friends in early stage startups so he went or left a tnt did a couple different startups along the way that he'll dive into a bit more in his experiences there and then after doing those um he decided to jump into what started out as a side hustle and then moved over to a full-time which is where he's at today and with that much as an introduction welcome to the podcast jeremy thanks so much i appreciate it so i gave a real brief a run through of your history but let's uh back up go back to your days at nyu and uh the heydays of undergraduate and start us there and kind of let us know or tell or tell us a bit about your journey yeah it sounds good well you know i i feel aged at this point you know graduating back in in 2011. um you know i i kind of think about my my four years as an undergrad as uh as my lost four years a little bit um you know in my transition from high school to college i think i went from being a big fish in a small pond to being a tiny fish in the ocean of new york city so to speak so you know i had played sports all throughout my life it was a really big part of my life and i got to school and didn't make the basketball team so that was uh you know a big piece of my identity that i think kind of fell away and i wasn't quite sure how to to respond to that um i had been a very strong student uh at a small school and you get to a school like nyu and everybody is a strong student a lot of the best students from from all over the globe um you know additionally you know i that private school that i went to i did the same private school for elementary middle and high school so these are class sizes around 50 people or so so you you know everybody there and i built up quite a bit of a reputation during that time and then of course you get to nyu and no one knows who you are so i guess the long story short of that is i didn't take that you know experience as seriously as i could have i spent a lot of time partying drinking uh doing some other things that young people do and uh you know i got to the end of that experience and said huh like i have no idea what i want to do and you know basically my solution to that was apply to all of the biggest most reputable companies that that you can think of and and see what sticks and as you mentioned uh that that b2b salesforce at atnt was the the first kind of enticing offer that that came across the desk and uh i i jumped at that opportunity um so now you say okay i'm coming out i'm not sure what i want to do so we'll kind of shock him right we'll apply to a whole bunch of good places see which one i'll do it hey at least they'll pay me well and we'll see what or kind of figure it out from there so you you know you shotgun it and it sounds like if i understand right then that's where at t came in and they said hey this is a good opportunity at t certainly a well-recognized company so you went and worked from there so how was your experience at 18t was it everything you dreamed of and you loved it you never wanted to leave or you hated it every day but you love the paycheck or somewhere in the middle i would say somewhere in the middle i think you know every every situation has has two sides of a coin so to speak so you know on the one hand i look back at that experience as an incredible time in my life because being such a big kind of storied company that it is it has a very rigorous training program so i am extremely fortunate and grateful to have to have gone through that experience it was kind of a six-month intensive program so i moved from new york down to atlanta where they have one of their corporate headquarters and i think the the big thing that i took away from that was you know i really learned kind of the foundations of the telecommunications industry how that you know eventually led to the internet and how a lot of the underlying technology works both from kind of a hardware and a software perspective and you know i think i learned more during that six months that would actually be relevant for my life and the future that i that i learned for the entire four years of school so i was incredibly um grateful and appreciative for for for that aspect of it additionally the the foundation of of training as a as a salesperson whether it's just you know presentation skills i i participated in toastmasters which is kind of a professional kind of public speaking organization but you know all of those things were fantastic things you know and i'd almost echo that i mean in the sense you're saying hey this was i learned more in the six months you know or the few months that i was training than i did in all of school and i you know i kind of feel the same way so i end up getting four degrees which my wife always says it's three degrees too many but a couple of them were one of them was an mba degree with masters of business administration and it was a good i would say about half of it was a good degree half of it i sit in the classes and think these are so fluffy there's no practical application and while it's great for the professor to tell us what they think there's i'm never going to use it and i think i still think i'm right i don't think that those are applicable the other half was you know reasonably worthwhile but then you know if you get into a business or startup you know there are so many things that they never teach you as an example they never teach you how to balance books how to do your actual accounting not just uh how do you add numbers but how do you do it how do you do hiring and firing how do you juggle multiple hats and do marketing and sales and product development and employees you know all of those things and until you really just at one point get into it you're never going to figure that out so i tend to echo that i think there's a place for education but there's also a much bigger place for learning it you know getting on the ground actually doing it and getting in a good training environment that can have even a better education in that sense precisely precisely i mean and i think that maybe one thing i would just add to that and specifically if for people that are in the the space of technology you know if you think about a four-year undergraduate degree so much changes during that four years so for example you know majoring in marketing and consumer behavior you know i was reading about you know what people were doing from an advertising perspective you know when cpg companies were you know building their their claim to fame right like it's it's kind of wild to think about none of my courses were digital marketing courses that's that's wild from 2007 to 2011. how like google was founded in 99 facebook was founded in 2004. like how are these how is a marketing degree from from 2007 to 2011 does not include digital marketing is is beyond me but we we digress but to your point there's a there's a place for for education but uh specifically in the world of fast-moving technology you learn far more by doing than than listening to other people talk about it yeah so so now with that in mind let's keep on your journey so you went and got and worked went and worked for att for a period of time got some good training got some good skill sets and then what made you decide to leave them or to kind of transition to what was the later stage startup that you jumped over to yeah i think the big thing was there was a lack of what i'll call vibrancy so to speak and in that i mean telecoms is a very slow moving and regulated industry with with tons of red tape right so you don't get a ton of you know rapid iteration or renovation from a product perspective you know all of the carriers basically sell the exact same suite of solutions so there's not much differentiation um so i think as a result of that a lot of the people that were around me were people that had been at t for 10 years 15 years sometimes in the same role for five years not to mention being at a different life stage most people were much older than i was um so just the the vibrancy and culture wasn't quite right for from where i was in in my life at that point so you know being in new york the the two industries that really kind of leave the charge in new york are are finance and and media and you know when i was in school you know i had kind of decided finance thing wasn't wasn't for me i went to marketing direction so you know when i started to think about where i wanted to go from 18t i was like huh there's this entire media industry here that's very vibrant if i think about that from the lens of technology there are hundreds of marketing and advertising technology companies that are you know raising 10 20 30 50 million dollars uh growing revenues 150 year over year like i have some knowledge in this space and sales is a pretty transferable skill set so i felt like i could move into the world of of marketing and advertising technology fairly fairly easily so i basically you know you can go to you know crunchbase or glassdoor or any of these places and just look for you know top 50 fastest growing marketing technology companies advertising technology companies um and just made a list and started interviewing and i ended up at a company called adroll and admiral was like you said a later stage startup about 700 folks or so uh had just raised a big 50 million series c and they pioneered what's called retargeting technology so say you go to the nike website and then you see those same shoes on facebook and they follow you around everywhere else on the web that's that's that's we're targeting technology and you're the one that i always curse that i go and look at one set website that i really don't care about much and then i see the ads for the next month or two that i really don't care about but it follows me all over the internet that was that company precisely precisely it was uh you know it's funny because you know as annoying as it is uh it actually works incredibly well right i mean for for very logical reasons right if you were looking at this product a bunch of different times and i remind you on your facebook feed like it makes sense that you would buy that more likely than seeing a random ad for something that you've never looked at before so it's actually you know one of the highest performing marketing channels or marketing tactics so to speak for for pretty obvious reasons um so admiral had pioneered that technology but they kind of failed to have a next act so to speak so they they scaled to 700 people really really quickly but by the time that i got to ad roll in 2014 the tech was already fairly commoditized and tons of competitors were starting to pop up and what avril kind of did it in response to that when i think the management team had realized that they grew too quickly you know some startups might just lay off a bunch of people adroll did something a little bit different they said well and i don't know if this is exactly what was what was being said but what it appeared to be was well people will just start to leave as the growth slows and that's exactly what happened people in droves started to leave the company and not just like underperformers like really really good people were leaving the company because of this kind of toxic transformation that was happening and you know for me after just about a year uh it kind of sucked the life out of it sucked the heart and the vibrancy out of the culture with so many people that are just walking out of the door people that were doing really well and and had previously held the company in a really high esteem so uh just luck of the draw i got it now from or a company called datarama and so maybe before we jump in so maybe walk me through just a little bit so you're working at 18t certainly a huge company and you know certainly has a you know a lot of money a lot of notoriety everybody knows who att is and then you go to adroll and you know i've heard of admiral eve before we talked and it was you know certainly a company that i've looked you know i do i know when retargeting is we use it as well even though sometimes i hate it it still is a absolutely good tool you know how was it first of all going from 18t to admiral which was a late stage startup um you know was there was it worthwhile was it you know what was the difference in phil or you know how did you enjoy that and i know it kind of wound down as they did the one stage pony and that's where you jump to the next one but you know how was that kind of those transitions as you went along yeah i mean the transition itself was was fairly easy and that's i mean i think one thing adroll did really really well was on board new employees um the culture and camaraderie in the office like the transition itself was was was fairly easy and and having been um trained and developed at like such a structured program um you know you can kind of step into any sales role and you understand kind of what you have to do right you build a 30 60 90 plan you build a prospecting plan you go you start you start reaching out you set up meetings you build a sales pipeline you know once you do one sales job well you can kind of step in and apply that to really selling anything because ultimately what is what is sales besides you know understanding the need of a customer kind of listening with empathy and being able to to address those needs with a solution right so the the transition itself was was fairly easy the people at admiral were amazing so that that made it uh all that much easier um the the big difference i would say you know having learned you know the foundations of of telecom and then kind of the internet you know admiral like the the realm of marketing and advertising technology was was pretty new and in response to that i had to do a lot of self-education so to speak um and it kind of goes back to what we were speaking a little bit about before with with kind of the traditional education system like when you go through school it's study this study that memorize this take this test but in how the the world is you don't just take you don't just memorize a whole bunch of things and take tests and they pay lots of money not at all how it works you jump into this job and it's like if you want to succeed you need to self-educate incredibly quickly and yeah then the company has you know a ton of resources and you know the internal wiki and all these things but you know for me it was like all right you know what meetups can i go to what what other people do i know in the industry let me just start getting you know i would plan you know three to five coffees a day with people that have been in the space for a long time like you just have to just dive into it and kind of get fully engaged in the process so that that process of of of self education uh was was was probably the biggest part of the transition from a learning curve perspective just like how do i uh tool myself with the with the skills and and necessary resources to to be successful in this role no and i think that makes that makes perfect sense and certainly uh worked out well for you so now let's say okay so you went from 18 t went to the late stage ad roll startup then he went to the early stage startup which you know maybe give us a little bit more kind of fun that transition and where that took you yeah so as i was starting to think about leaving adroll the thing that really stood out to me about that experience was like okay culture was spot on amazing people amazing atmosphere the thing that became very very apparent was that the most important thing at a technology company is the problem that's just okay what's the first thing but like what is the vision and where where does it go from there um you know the the retargeting tech you know now is it was it was very very commoditized by the time 2015 came around like regardless of what advertising agency or advertising company you were working with chances are there's like a box that you can check to just turn on retargeting because it's i mean from a technical perspective it's literally you put one line of code on the website and then you can just pixel the browser and it's very very trivial to be able to do that so the the big thing that i was thinking about for the next thing was like okay i need to go to a company where like the product and the technology is actually absolutely game changing and absolutely differentiated and when this recruiter reached out to me for for data rama you know i was like i can't hurt to go talk to the the management team uh i went to to talk with the management team and and one of the things that a friend of mine told me which was maybe one of the best pieces of advice um that i've ever gotten was when you go to an interview ask them to give you a demo of the product i don't know why that never occurred to me um but you know he was really the first person that said to me like if you're going to like a career is hopefully kind of a long-term bet so you should be interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you and i was like wow so now when i talk to to younger people or people that are getting started and thinking about moving into the world of startups i always tell them make sure you see the product like ask to see the product because a lot of companies will take you through an interview process and never show you the product and they will tell you it's amazing and they'll show you the logos on their website and they'll talk about the money that they've raised but then you get there and it's like smoking mirrors and you realize a lot a lot of bubble gum and duct tape keeping things together so i got to the interview and i saw the product and i was completely floored by what they were doing um this company called datarama basically what they were helping companies to address was the fact that you know in 2015 there's an explosion of digital marketing right and i'm as a multi-time entrepreneur i'm sure you know this but any company that's trying to acquire customers you do that on facebook on google on twitter on pinterest on radio on tv on billboards on infinite right there's there's a there's a there's a million different channels that you can use to acquire customers and every single one of those places produces data right so as a business owner or a marketer you need to understand what's working what's not how do i optimize these marketing investments to drive the best return so danarama basically built technology that would automatically plug into all of those different marketing systems pull all of the data into one place and then they would automatically build these incredible visualizations to help you understand what marketing efforts were the most effective for your business and that was completely completely revolutionary and then the timing was perfect as well like you know 2015 like if you look at 2015 and now like the last five years you know how much has been added to google in facebook's market cap how much has been added to snaps and pinterest's market cap like these companies have gone from you know small startups that were worth maybe 50 million dollars to you know google's 1.1 trillion facebook 800 billion the trade desk 30 billion dollar company my wife works at pinterest 50 billion dollar company like it's it's incredible incredible growth and it's continuing to grow now so they solved an incredible problem they did it right at the right time with an amazing product engineering team um so i was super lucky to just hit it right place um joined at 40 people and you know when i left earlier this year in february we were 650 people and it had been acquired um by salesforce to be uh kind of the technology marketing analytics uh solutions over there so it was an amazing journey and all the things that i learned all the people that i met was just completely kind of transformational for my experience so now one question on that so you know you're joining the right right place right time kind of a thing a company that just takes off like a rocket ship makes a huge impact you know splash and you know has lots of employees what made you decide to to leave and i think you know when we talked a little bit before you said hey you know they took off so well that they got acquired by i think it was sales force and he said kind of as that acquisition happened you know culture change it wasn't quite the same thing it wasn't as fun was that kind of the motivation for or jumping over and doing kind of what you were doing as a side hustle and on to a full-timer kind of what motivated that jump from what was a rocket ship company to your own thing no so i i wouldn't say that that's what motivated it because what you just described is a little bit of an inevitability right when any when any company acquires a different company slowly at first and then more quickly over time things start to change because you know when you when companies get acquired ultimately you have to kind of adhere to the culture that you become a part of right so part of that is just inevitable and it's just what happened after companies get acquired um yes what we had at datarama was was was almost a family you know at that point when you're when you're you know you spend five years starting from you know when i when i started we were 15 people in in a a small office there was a few offices across the globe the new york offices was about 15 people so you know just going through the experiences of people having children of people going through divorces of you know the the near-death experiences that you go like all like we were we were just a family right and it is sad when that starts to change after after an acquisition but that's not what motivated it i i think when i initially made the transition from a t to ad role i had really never been aware of the world of startups at all so this concept of people are creating businesses from nothing incredibly quickly and you know coming back to the point of retargeting is fairly trivial like put a pixel on a site and you just reach like you actually don't need to like build a rocket ship to go to mars right you don't need to be elon musk to actually build a really valuable company and solve a real problem so when i got to ad roll is when i became aware of the fact that like wow you just need a good team and an idea and you can execute on something so i started to kind of think about well if i want real financial independence if i want you know what the founders of this company have if i want to then have a larger scale impact on the world like i need to create something so it had been it has been a kind of a thought that was that was just festering in the back of my mind and when we got acquired when when datarama got acquired by salesforce of course there's uh a financial component of acquisitions which which gives you a nice uh kind of financial foundation to say okay like if i did have the right idea now i have the ability to go to go be flexible about like how i want to go after that idea right i don't necessarily need to you know raise a bunch of money and quit or or this type of thing right because you you have some flexibility and some time to kind of think about it so post acquisition is when i started to accelerate the process of thinking about different ideas that i that i have been kind of playing with in my mind and it was also at adorama that i met my now co-founder who is just an amazing human being right just as as a human he's an amazing human being as an engineer and a product person he's an amazing engineer so when we met um we immediately started talking about ideas and and just exchanging emails and things like that and when we hit on something that we felt um was was was viable we started kind of tinkering on it more as a side project so the thing that really motivated me to leave danarama was one of these side projects had started to build up some momentum and some real traction and i thought that if we were going to take a real shot at building this into a big company and and we wanted a real chance of success uh it needed my my full attention so the you know another piece of advice that i got from somebody along the way is when you when you leave a company or when you leave an opportunity even when you potentially maybe like leave a relationship then you should be running towards something as opposed to running away from something so you know as data rama it was an amazing experience so now you mate you make that jump and you go to your own thing you decide that hey this is where i want to be this is the impact i want to have how did it go was it a all roses and it was worked out great was it been rough and bumpy has it been all of the above or how is that gone for you well so i left in february and covet hit in march perfect time if that if that says anything about about how those um initial months went um a ton of self-doubt um a ton of did i just make a huge mistake uh was this the absolute wrong time to do this oh no like like so a ton of that a ton of that um you know hindsight being 20 20 now i'm actually very very grateful um because we actually uh did a pretty big pivot in in response to coco but not not so much on a pivot of like what we were building in the core technology but a pivot in terms of our go to market strategy and and how like what customer segments we were going after so maybe it would be helpful to give some context on kind of what identity is and then i can maybe explain that that pivot a little bit you know in you know a few minutes ago when we were talking about data rama we talked about how their platform automatically ingested marketing data from all these different places so that you could kind of simplify the experience of understanding you know what marketing is working and what marketing is not you know one thing i noticed during that journey in datarama is in the same way that digital advertising is exploding you know you can do it in a million different places you know our lives on the internet has exploded in in a very similar way and in every facet right so if you think about you know my personal life you know if i look at today versus 10 years ago i have you know three brokerage accounts uh three credit cards um you know 20 different accounts with e-commerce uh suppliers you know everything i do online that i didn't do online ten years ago um same thing at work right you go to work and if you're a business owner your your crm is online your accounting system is online you're if you're an e-commerce your inventory every everything that we do is on the internet and all of those things when you sit down at your computer all of those things have you know their own websites or their own applications to solve those problems so you know i would i would have this experience where i would be on my computer and i'm sure you and everyone else can relate to this you know by the end of your day you have 20 30 maybe 40 different browser tabs open at the same time with all these different things your emails your calendar like all these different apps that you're using to solve all these different problems and in addition to the browser you probably have maybe a messaging app like slack open maybe you have a note taking app like evernote open there's just a million things that are always open on your on your screen and for me i always felt so overwhelmed by all of that it just kind of detracted from my ability to to focus and and be optimally productive so ultimately one of the ideas that hit me along the way was is there a way to just kind of simplify and organize this experience in a way that would better facilitate focus and productivity right i'm a i'm a big mindfulness person so i'm i'm big on kind of cultivating attention and focus and trying to be present and uh and attentive to whatever it is that i'm focused on and just the visual clutter and distraction from from everything that's happening on um inside the browser was completely overwhelming to me so that's ultimately what we did when in building identity we built kind of a a tool that helps you simplify and organize your entire online experience and you can basically access everything that you do online from one screen so it's a it's a really kind of powerful transformation but when we when i left in february when i left salesforce the initial plan was to go after the business market like the smb market because you know as a small business owner all those pieces of software that we just talked about accounting email customer service all of those different software applications i felt like there was a big opportunity to help business owners simplify and organize that experience and and improve productivity covet happens and every small business was in existential crisis mode like no one wanted to have a conversation about what new software to buy the only conversations they were having was can i make payroll next month like am i going to be around six months from now right like where are my children do they need to come home and not be in school or wherever the you know the conversations were not about software evaluations and so a lot of our business conversations slowed down in parallel to that what we saw is the the users that we had already signed up all of the apps that they were adding to identity were personal apps everybody was signing up for costco memberships and target memberships and amazon memberships and just all of the things that they were forced to do online that they weren't doing online previously and we realized people were leveraging our technology far more for their personal lives than they were for their business lives i mean there's definitely a business use case but the personal one is just as big if not bigger so we completely focused uh we switched we switched our focus from from b to b to a b to c uh model and just signing up individuals that use it for business personal and and everything in between so that was actually a huge moment of uh defining kind of who we are as a company and then what our good market strategy would be no i think that that's awesome and it's always good to as you're having to go through things you know to have the attitude that if things are changing grounds changing around us let's figure out how to pivot and adjust as opposed to just uh hope that you know hope the good old days come back so to speak well we always have more things to talk about than time to talk about and we're reaching towards the end of the podcast so i'm going to jump to the two questions i always ask at the end of the podcast so the first question i always ask is along your journey what was the worst business decision you ever made and what did you learn from it yeah that's a great question um you know and i always look at mistakes as you know these are the biggest learning moments right so i wouldn't say i regret any of these things but one of the things that maybe would have been wonderful to have not done um you know if you're going to build a technology company i am a firm believer that having a technical co-founder is absolutely critical to that process i had another project that i tried to start a few years ago and my co-founder could do some mobile development but we had no one on our team that could do any of the web or back-end development so we outsourced that and it was a huge problem because you know we had a day that we had an outage and you know the developers were in india so we couldn't get the software back up until 12 hours later and that lost our customers a ton of revenue and but can't have that as a business so having a technical person on the team having having a core team being able to tackle all facets of the business i think is critical so that was a huge huge learning moment no i think that's a good one to learn and i think that a lot of times you have to have somebody with some of that institutional knowledge not just as employ you know it's just an employee or someone you know independent contractor but is you know it makes it core if that's what you're building the business around so now we jump to the second question which is so if you're talking to someone that's just getting into a startup or a small business what would be the one piece of advice you'd give them yeah so you know i think there's this myth in the technology world that the only way to proceed is to kind of quit and go all in right there's kind of this idolatry of people like you know burke who drop out of school and just go all in and raise a bunch of money and then everything is a success after that but i think in reality most things start as side projects and tinkering um you know not necessarily the silicon valley startups but most business owners like the first step is to start trying things slowly so i'm a huge fan of of side projects and side hustles so to speak you know before you decide to to change your life and quit your job or or you know take money out of your 401k like try to get one customer you know try to try to just do one thing try to try to validate the idea in in a number of different ways before before you decide to you know kind of bet the bet the farm on things so huge future and i think that's that's good advice i think it's a hard one because you know especially if you get all excited you want to just jump in you think it's going to change the world every entrepreneur that i've ever known thinks their idea is going to change the world it's going to make them millions or billions of dollars sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not so i think to start out with that side hustle figure out if people are willing to pay for it and if it works is a great piece of advice well as we wrap up if people want to find out more about your company be a client be an investor be an employee be your next best friend any or all of the above what is the best way to connect up with you yeah so uh i weird a t i uh we're on all the social platforms instagram twitter twitter uh on the web identity.com uh has all the information and if folks want to follow me personally i'm on twitter j h u r s t 1 2. all right you cut out very shortly for the twitter so do you want to repeat that just one more time for everybody wanna connect with me personally on twitter that's jhurst12 j h u r s t one two all right well i certainly encourage everybody to connect up with you find out more about uh jeremy and find out more about the product find out what they're doing and make sure to connect with them well thank you jeremy it's been a pleasure to have you on now for all of you that are listeners if you have your own journey to tell make sure to check out uh or go to inventivejourney.com or sorry inventivejourneyguest.com i almost shortened it too quickly there and apply to be a guest on the podcast so you can tell your journey and we'd love to share it if you're a listener make sure to click subscribe on the podcast so that you can get notifications as all the awesome episodes come out and last but not least if you ever need help with patents and trademarks we're always here to help with miller ip law thank you again jeremy and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last cheers devin thanks for having me hey if you enjoyed this episode of the inventive journey make sure to go and check out startups magazine they're an awesome magazine and podcast centered over in the uk and if the magazine is a digital and print magazine where they focus on tech startups and entrepreneurs and they also have a focus on female founders and women in tech so if you want to check out their magazine neither digital or print it's startups magazine startups with an s magazine.co.uk and you can also look up their podcast which is called the serial entrepreneur so go check them out they're awesome and definitely if you like this episode you'll like them you English (auto-generated)