Wake Up Looking Forward

Wake Up Looking Forward

Michael Nusinkis & Jack Nekhala
Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey
Podcast for Entrepreneurs

7/13/2020

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Wake Up Looking Forward

"If you wake up every day saying "I want to become a star! I want to become a star!", you probably aren't going to make it as a star. If you wake up everyday "I love this game, I can't wait to go play" THAT'S when you are going to become a star. If you can honestly say "I can't wait" when you wake up, you'll make it."


The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

ai generated transcription

if you wake up I really think you know I want to be a star I want to be a star right if you wake up every day saying I love this game I can't wait to go you know to go play can't wait to go to Part yes when you're gonna become a star so if you can if you can honestly say I can't wait and wake up and I mean look you're not necessarily going to be a flowery and busy road ahead of everything that you love I mean you're gonna hit some bumps there's gonna be the days and bad days like with anything but generally you should be able to wake up and look forward to to the next step if you not looking forward to the next time don't do it everyone this is Devin Miller here with another episode of the inventive journey I'm your host Evan Miller the serial entrepreneur that's also a patent and trademark attorney each episode we covered the inventive journey of different startups and small businesses and entrepreneurs and we got a great great journey to discuss today we've got a couple guests on today so we've got both Jack and Michael they have come up with a wall item to suggest a little bit more but a way to fix your bed to make that the sheets work better and to make it make it more enjoyable and they call the bed scrunchies so they'll talk a little bit more about it they have before that they have a long history in the the linens business and so kind of is their background so welcome to the podcast both of you guys thank you for having 7 thank you so I gave you an intro that probably doesn't do you guys anywhere near the justice so maybe I'll let you guys jump into a little bit of your your background in your shirt story and tell a little bit about your journey yeah that sounds good thank you thank you for having us man we really appreciate it Mike what do you wanna give it a personal thank you here absolutely different thanks for having us Jack you want you want to start with a little bit background on yourself and how we gots ittle bit of background I'll just give a little brief background of how I haven't already kind of mentioned in the intro you know Mike and I already are industry for 110 years combined experience more than twenty years actually so we've been at this quite a while so we know that you know loose bed sheets aren't problem you know Luxor linens is our first company first baby which we started when we haven't 2006 2006 when we were 19 years old so when I battle yeah when we were 19 we started out of college and online was just happening it was a pumping marketplace fast forward or too quickly so in color we didn't even talk about that beforehand in color so did you go to college or dive straight out of high school you're sorry I'm going to start you said you started 2006 it was out there out of high school and you started hey we're gonna start our own business and not worry about college did you do during college or did you I know we got to college that we realized we got to college like you know my parents are working-class people I think you know I mean being on the first generation American who I was before near Mike Mike is an immigrant so he came they gave him on a boat somewhere I came off that I came off the boat Alice I'm Kate Ellis Island now we're just joking around but yeah so he came here he came here when he was young come here Mike we came in 89 you know so you can't one Jordan was warm enough man when he was getting good exactly okay so basically you know you know we were not you know exposed to to a fancy life by any means or or or you know our parents weren't businesspeople but you know I think you know growing up you know and growing up especially where we live in Staten Island and stuff at scene everyone else it you know we were trying to do our best into into getting to the next level and I think me and Mike found found that in common and you know at a young age and you know we had many ventures together starting off from I think we were selling you know jackets on eBay you were selling sunglasses and things and and yeah just trying to find the next best thing until we finally put something legit legit legitimate with luxury and I mean my most vivid my most vivid memory would be you know sitting in college building building the website for luxury linens calm so it's like I was in college you know already not zoned out I was fully zoned out we were answering calls remember remember leaving class answer customer calls it wasn't even on top of waitering and you know in order to support me and buy this inventory knew these things so you know you know come come work with me I was a waiter I was doing part-time gigs you know I was working on the weekends and stuff and and you know Mike would cover my tables I'd run out in the back of that like I got an ordered somebody's calling me and stuff so you know was exciting it was it was a real fun we're talking about lobster linens meanwhile you know but it's all tied together you know because yeah you know I think that being involved in this business looks or linens and and building it passionately and going through the ups and downs of that really helped us realize that you know hey there's a problem that we need to solve and hey we need to do this in order to protect our future so there was a two-fold situation creating best friends really mm-hmm yeah and I think it's always fun to hear a little bit about the background of kind of half-white what you guys where you guys came from where you you know came up with what was the preview experience in the background because that often times will flavor you know that the business you're in now is to lessons learned and how you guys like you know what you've done what you've done differently and how you've done it and how you had the experience and to launch something business coming along so that's cool so I do like the idea I almost picture that you know you're in the middle of class you know you have somebody that's professors talking is that somebody the phone rings and you just run out don't even worry about what this class is talking about make sure you do customer service you know I want to think that that's the most fun part to be with the business is that early on that is an honest-to-god that visualization that you just paint that there I was that was should be directed for the movies I mean that was that was it I was exactly what was happening I mean it was fun we learned a lot men you know experience is the best teacher of all you know better than any class better than any professor so hands-on oh don't be afraid to get your hands dirty try and fail try again so then so maybe now I'll let you fast for a little bit so you have luxury linens I think you when we talked a little bit before you grew that Luxor Luxor looks like they can see now luxury linens I misspoke good all right so you grew that I think when we talked before it I think around 13 million and you saw that the business was gonna start to kind of fade or that you know the bedsheets are almost becoming more of a commodity or something no no it wasn't it wasn't the bedsheets came more of a commodity you know we did we did realize back in 2010 2012 13 up to 2013 that was our peak and hmm I personally realized and I kept telling Mike the sun's not going to shine forever he's like what do you need this and that well we were in a cycle of Groupon LivingSocial all those websites had started merging at that point and we were the first on the list you know we were the first one list with Groupon you know go to coupon Goods I mean rewind now let's rewind you know three years ago two years ago to you know I guess 20 17 20 20 20 17 2016 you know at the height of Groupon and social they had like four or five thousand products on coupon blitz we were like one out of four products so I mean we were making I mean we were buying things for for you know 12 13 bucks we get back 30 bucks from Groupon and they were selling it for 49 so I mean we will make him he was by putting $10 $20 clean off of $10 75,000 units at a time to three times a month like there was nobody's business so it was an incredible thing and I knew that wasn't gonna last I mean I was that was I was crazy I mean yeah that was beautiful it was a beautiful thing this went on for a couple of years and and I knew I knew was but at the same time you know I'm experiencing you know this is bed sheets and and I'm doing well with the bed sheets and until I took this one sheets at home I put her on my bed and it kept coming off the bed and that's when I was like you know what I love the sheet set but it's not staying on the bed so I went Amazon I bought it was a solution you know some kind of clip suspended thing I tried to use it I think I was like fighting with my wife that weekend or whatever so she wouldn't help me lift the mattress all I was on my own sounds like this opinion yes it's got to be an easier way to do it I don't know so I gave up I threw on my dresser I left you know we went on I need to take much other you know fast-forward later that week I don't know I'm on my way to the office of getting dressed I'm gonna work I grab this contraption that I bought and was a pain in the ass I don't know I have some sewing machines because you know that's what we do we were in the textile business so you're sewing to do in Word or even custom bed sheets I love certain letters so knowing that I had the sewing machines know I read I grabbed this construction I took it with me I cut it up by eye I started making something for myself something that I thought would be great so really when was it with a business idea that you're gonna get it started I said hey I just this is personal use I just want to make sure that my you know my bed she stays I i knew the idea of obviously coming up with an intervention coming up with patents i knew the idea of this i was isolating everything out just like let me see what I can do with this right let me not think about that too fast let me just say that the sewing machine let me just get my hands dirty little bit let me see what I can come up with beforehand and myself you know I didn't want to get ahead of myself at that point so I gave myself a week until I came up with something and then I until I had something that I could show Mike and I was like Mike wouldn't what do you think of this thing right cuz what am I gonna tell him I got this idea everybody's got ideas right everybody has ideas but we just walking up to somebody with something like this and you're like you know the name I think this would be me and this is it and this is its function now now you have some dialogue right so I know I had to get to that point before so once I got to that point then then my sword I think that's what Mike was like oh you know this is cool man this this is this could be something that I started validating with the people in my office and then and then I kind of put it to bed for a little bit until I filed my actions no pun intended I found no pun intended until I filed my patents and then and then once once those pants Fame came to life I plane to China with no real agenda of anything besides just figuring out what I'm gonna do and then there's a lot of things that happen fast forward four years later you know we're selling in between there the journey the journey of getting it down you know how I mean this could be a different topic for later to be impossible to go through a lot of stuff to happen in between as far as you know you know look just cuz you have the patent it doesn't mean just because you have an idea it doesn't mean often people screw up in the manufacturing process I think that's probably the hardest process and we spoke about this the other day might because obtaining a patent is one thing enforcing impact is another thing producing and selling or two three other things so these are all different functions that all have to happen at the same time seamlessly in order to be successful what do you think yeah I don't know I don't know if you're asking me or Michael but I definitely agree with in the sense that you know I've been through on high as I mentioned I'm a bit of a serial entrepreneur and I've done everything from software-as-a-service you know those kind of subscription products to I do working with the company that's helped co-found for a wearable diabetes monitoring and each one is different we end up wearing a whole lot of hats and everything is hard and everything is different and then you're expected to figure it out did all the same time and it's not an easy it's not an easy juggle and you always feel like you're running to catch up are you struggling to keep ahead of everything and you're always trying to just say one that one step ahead a failure type of a thing so I I'm in complete agree yeah well I really really I I really like to relate this to cooking you know I mean it's like cooking Thanksgiving dinner you want everything to come out at the same time you come out at the same time without burning the turkey or toasting this or that or you know so so I mean essentially Germany should be it's it's like you know or like an octopus you just got a level everything out you have the you know different arms and you got to stay level octopus but you gotta wear multiple hats you know what I mean to make it wear multiple hats but but back to that wear multiple hats that's important but you've got to know what the turn off you know and turn on certain things and when you're when you're in that position of doing you know and that's that's that's where when you you know we're talking about the question we'll get to that later look you gotta focus focusing is important tunnel vision is important you know you really you really got a hone in on what you're good at no I completely hey group so now now almost you're again fast-forwarding so four years in development took a lot of time and I think when we talked before you're still running the linens business and women's company in the mean time and how you know and I think if I remember right and create the problem you're still you're still involved you're still running that but now you've kind of shifted the focus and attention to be on bed scrunchies and see that as kind of the next up-and-coming so how do you manage or how do you juggle where you put your time and your effort between the linens company and bed scrunchies and how do you make that make that transition that's a really good question well you know we see we see both companies as they're intertwined right I mean it's not like we're selling you know I mean we're yeah they're parallel to each other so I mean we kind of mirror off the success selling apples so we're alright we're in the same realm so we think that that was a strategic and great move that we did you know and kind of positioned ourselves to make but again you could even plan this out you're kind of just you know it just happens you don't know what your next idea is going to be I don't know if you know if I could have came up with an idea for an amazing cell phone case for an example I don't know but it just so happened to be embedding so I kind of lucked out there you know that's cool so now you've done that for your gut and I think that's a great thing is in the sense that they almost have the the synergy are able to work or play off of each other so as you're one company and as the other that they don't competing and they aren't pulling you in different directions but rather pull you this thing in fact in fact they trust promote each other's like you sell somebody sheets that you sell them up a scrunchy how much crunchy shell you sell on the sheet set so it's a beautiful thing then and it's great because the best drunky the best crunchies is a fairly inexpensive effective product which appeals to the masses and by appealing to the masses they're gaining the trust and building you know customer or customer database which in my opinion is the hardest and most difficult part of growing any business so by building this customer database you know it's like you know it's like these people are paying me to create leads I'm giving them a solution I'm actually trading a leads that I'm gonna be able to use and sell them bed sheets and turn this into a 50 60 million dollar company possibly why not that's cool hey why not so now you take the four years in development you've got the bad scrunchies you got the linens company so what looking at kind of maybe the next six months or a year what you know what's out there what where do you see things headed or what's the what's our trajectory you're on or where do you think or where you gonna end up in another year I think our trajectory simple is sell as many best crunches as possible in as many countries as possible and become sort of a betting accessory phenomenon become the most talked about betting accessory make it a thing once it's a thing that means a lot of people have bought it and I have those people's information and all some other things because it's a really it's quite simple for me you know what I mean and hopefully public TV appearances in between and how accelerate the situation as you know what I mean you know there's nothing wrong pour a little fuel on the fire you know so I think that's that's you know PR you gotta go out there you gotta talk to people that's it's important you know networking with the right people is important no I think that's good you don't necessarily have to leave your house to do well now busy to do anything that's true you guys we were doctor before it you guys in New York so you hear if you want to leave or want to go outside you couldn't so you guys are gonna be stuck in there at least in mute oh we're naturally spread out so we you know we don't ever see a tons of people anyway so we don't have to we could go outside a little bit more but though that's that's a good point so yeah I mean we're in a good we're in a good little pocket over here and stand out it's like a little secret haven of New York City so we're kind of spread out to school I always I grew up in a small town and I like the small-town feel so I always even what you guys would consider like spread out that's our baby claustrophobic so but no I did enough I was always at the search for a small town small towns as has gone up like by 40 percent a lot of people from these cities like Cali and stuff a lot of people live in the move out go to small towns or anything like that you seen that yeah I ELISA where I'm at at the small towns keep keep disappearing as more and more people want to move into the small town so it seems like everybody property values enough attention and I don't know how well I ever Cova and everything going on so maybe if I pull us back on topic for the last year my final question so we ask kind of the trajectory the next six you know six six months to a year is hey we're gonna blow this up we're gonna do whatever TV appearances I had whatever kind of fuel to the fire and do everything else so do you think you know and so one question and maybe you guys don't have this problem I see a lot of times with entrepreneurs and startups and small businesses is you always have you know the next five or ten great ideas and you always have the next thing you want to do and how do you decide where to put your focus and where it's when that when is the next idea that you so you got you know linens company now you've got bed scrunchies and maybe you have the next two or three ideas in the pipeline you know at some point how do you decide what's the time of year when dicks go after those and when it makes sense to kind of build out the company to that next next idea that's also a really great question I think for me I try to find things that coincide with each other it's like connected to the new next year's dot you know I'm not gonna go there if I can go over here you know so I'd like like I said you know how I came up with the bed linens so I would again trying to you know my next thing would be to take this from a one product company and grow it into a nice fruitful tree that will be my you know and I think naturally that would be anybody's mates that if you're if you're an inventor and you're creating a one product right you try to pull other things around already have those amazing job at selling that one product that you created once you do that you'll build the whole trust thing you build the customer thing and you'll sell him on the ship I mean it's a really simple thing you know do the right thing yeah I think I think I think you don't want to bounce over onto the next thing too early before you feel like you have a tight grip on you know think you already started doing you know I want I want to just keep it what it is right now and make it really famous for what it is I think that's really important think about McDonald's when they first started off you know already service you know 47 joseffer milkshakes burgers and french fries that's it keep it simple and I think that once you become amazing for that one or two things then then that's a reputation then you sell the Egg McMuffin right yeah then you sell your muffin then then you sell the Big Macs and then you solo this other stuff right so yeah so I got all I'm saying I agree sorry we keep talking over here we get we got a delay here that's right so I always got my lasting questions but one thing that I think is it's fun to have both of you guys on and I'll put you guys a little bit on the spot so you know I would say at least most entrepreneurs or most people the startups and small businesses and going things there have to be strong will individuals in the sense that you almost have to have that determination nobody's going to tell me what I can do I'm going to figure this out I'm gonna do it right and I'm gonna make this work and you almost have to have that will or desire that personality in order to be able to saw through all of the ups and downs and the goods and good in the bad of startups and small businesses and both of you guys have you know certainly it seemed to fit that mold really well but how do you guys when you now have two people they're kind of running things together and your friends and you're doing businesses together how do you kind of resolve differences or how do you kind of make sure that you know you don't have things blow up or you guys don't have a falling-out or you make sure that you guys are both they end in the same direction that's also a really good question I think that in order to minimize that for myself from me what I do is I just I just think it ELISA focused on the goal right if I know that in the end I'm trying to obtain or achieve or grab or do or get do this one thing then then I'm basically you know it's like it's like fighting through a water like here I mean you know like go to war I mean there I'm sure they have some funny times on the battlefield that's where they laugh they smile and I'm sure it happens I like gun battle but yeah we were just talking about it today yeah we have sometimes we have good tension you know what I mean because I disagree we fight we fight it out sometimes you know like like brothers but ya know sometimes out of this sometimes out of this tension we get other ideas and things things become clearer you know I think it's a boy it's funny enough that I was actually talking to Mike about it and we were talking about I'm gonna go ahead and talk about the last dance it seems to be a popular topic now and I just finished you know binge watching it because everybody said it was so good and I need some time to watch it and I think like you know even when they talk about you know Jordan it's tough they said you know like there was a lot of tension between between his teammates and stuff they actually they're upset because they they they portrayed Jordan to be nicer than he really was he was a lot more of a balloon it was it was a bully but you know I think that I think I'm not condoning bullying here but I think tension is good I think tension is important you gotta have differences these differences for five years and create fuel to the fire you know for me the best thing anybody can do is disagree with me or tell me that I can't do something that that and I mean I guess that's what I took out of that last dance - I felt like Jordan was also like when the guy told him a good game or whatever any patent he came back the next day and ripped him up we'll remember that you know yeah yeah what was that guy's tackling blows game no that was just like some no-name Brad Bradford minute or something like that exactly he's like he's like oh good game came back the next day and he scored 38 points in that first half instead of would you watch it Devon did you watch the last dance I've started watching and I haven't fully benched it yet so yeah I won't I haven't got to that point here so you're not what everyone I'm on this thing I've had enough enough people that have told me it's great and I should watch that I had started it but life has been crazy busy so I haven't had the same you know before you go to sleep in you know I fell asleep to it a couple nights you know I didn't go back to the pond but you know it's great it's great because all the things that you could relate from from that into business you know me and Jack were just talking about it today it's like you know I was always explaining to Jack how you need to have a cushion above you so if you're a leader in an organization for example right you could you could ride your employees hard to get the most out of them but it's best when you have somebody even a little bit higher above you that those employees can go to if you you know and insult them too bad or you know you ride them a little too hard so it's just a little lesson from there Jordan would ride his teammates extremely hard but the teammates are gonna go and cry to Phil Jackson and he would kind of smooth everything out you'd be like well Mike when you're on top though who you're gonna go cry we're gonna put up there I mean there's God making pretty Christ and you know maybe and good when you're the guy when you're when you're the guy you know exactly exactly exactly that's the point you have to know the limits you have to you have to lead by example and and it's important the end and also what they said is is be sure to be willing you know you should be willing to tell tell people things to do things that you're not willing to do yourself I think that's a no-no it's definitely something that you know it's an important takeaway but no overall I think that having having a partner having differences is not a bad thing having disagreements could be extremely healthy for for especially for an invention process for development process for the growing process really you know ya know I think in a complete agreement on all of that so I think that's that's very good insight well as we get towards the end of the podcast always try and keep it about a half an hour to it so there's about the attention span of most people so as we get to that and we mentioned always have two or two questions I ask at the end of the podcast so I'll jump to those now so the first one and maybe I'll ask each of you guys and see if you guys has answers line up or how or how each of you guys interpret it but what's the worst business decision you ever made Mike you go ahead I mean am I in my mind that I have a few who but I guess the biggest one would be you know when when you're doing well you know don't take your foot off the gas try to see if you would diversify something just to have some other revenue streams you know something for you know a rainy day so that would be you know my you know in hindsight that would be that would be one thing that I felt like we did wrong we took the foot off the gas a little bit and kind of put it on cruise control autopilot you know you know what I typically disagree with Mike but in this actual situation I'm not because yeah he actually revised he went back and revised what he what he thought was where's mistakes of the past because we've discussed this in the past and and and you know Mike's idea usually and diversify would try other purses but I mean yeah when you're doing well definitely don't take your foot off the gas and if you're gonna die to diversify you want to diversify within within the the pool of action that you're already doing you know what I mean so if you're selling towels you know maybe they first find selling ropes if you're gonna sell maybe they're versafine selling sheets that type of a personification is okay but you know you don't want to you know be no little business and then you know maybe go start a car dealership tomorrow about my my you know kind of maybe too far of a diversification I think we touched about that a little earlier you know in the podcast I think that you know you want you don't want to stray too far from the dots no I I think that's a good insight I was listening to you know I do this podcast I also love to listen other podcast and there was one that was about Wrigley gum right so everybody had likely heard of briefly gum but there was a competitor way back when but they basically tried to Minimoog Wrigley was very small and area was a you know kind of a fly on in a very big you know room type of a thing they they had a monopoly basically everybody but Wrigley got together made a monopoly and had a kind of a gum consortium so to speak for chewing gum at the time this was 100 plus years ago and then when once they made monopolies they stopped advertising they all gave themselves big dividends they took the foot off the gas and Wrigley on the other hand just went out and blitzed advertising he put the cap to put on the gas kept the momentum building in at the end that you know that consortium nobody knows anymore and it's gone away and yet you have regular that's still you know become the provider so I think that that a good lesson to learn is you know and a mistake that's often made us hate when things go well sometimes you just you don't want to rock the boat and yet you need to keep the people put on the gas so I think that's a great great insight okay my second question but I always ask is for somebody that's just getting into startups or getting into small businesses or just wants to get into that what would be the number one of a piece of advice you guys would give them really and choose choose choose wisely choose what wisely everything everything as far as like what business are you going to do you really love it are you really a state about it can you can you can you lose track of time when you're doing it are you willing are you willing to to do it for a year or two years and not get paid are you willing to give up things that you love people that you'd like seen frequently to pursue it so so I mean like it's like it's like playing an instrument we're playing you know or if you love it so much that you know you'll put in the time to practice or it's like playing basketball you put it in the time so much that you're gonna practice and and I don't think you know in most situations a lot of these athletes they may even grow up saying they want to be athletes they just love it so much that they play so good they get noticed and then they become and become chosen to become athletes right they get noticed um but that's because initially they're so passionate about what they're doing right they're not even naked about that you know if you wake up every day think you know I want to be a star I want to be a star right if you wake up every day saying I love this game I can't wait to go you know to go play I can't wait to go to part yes when are you gonna become a star so if you can if you can honestly say I can't wait and wake up and I mean look you're not necessarily going to be a flowery and Daisy road ahead of everything you love and you're gonna hit some bumps there's gonna be good days and bad days like with anything but generally you should be able to wake up and look forward to to the next step if you're not looking forward to the next step don't do it yeah I also think you know as an entrepreneur as an inventor if you're gonna you know think of creating a new product just to just take the dive and try to try to try to sell that product on the market place as early as possible you know some kind of prototype put up a listing it doesn't it doesn't have to be you know you don't even have to have your manufacturing in place put it up see if people are willing to open up the Elat and start you know you know paying for it and if they do is another you'll know that you have something real there and you know what I mean and then you could you could go back to the drawing book and implant for bigger and better things but the sooner you can do that the earlier you'll have that reassurance in your mind that you're on the right track and generally don't be discouraged I mean look there's gonna be a lot of stuff that's going to pop up that's gonna tell you you know you shouldn't it's not going to work or you know just try it you want to make it work basically you'll find a way to make it work no no I got it initially I think it starts off with again that love and that strong desire what in the world what's what's the quote what's the quote Jack what's Jack what's your quote you're famous well desperation is the key to creation if you're desperate enough you'll find a way to make it happen yeah I like that one I like that one what's your desperate you know like if you're having me in your desperate you'll still you'll make it happen whatever it is you know well what do they say hungry a hungry dog runs faster right twenty dangle a carrot in front of the horse when you guys have all sorts of good words of wisdom I think that's some great advice so I think those are things that keep to heart well as we wrap up certainly want to people want to whether they want to get involved with your product they want to reach out they want to invest they want to buy the product whatever the main area case might be what was the best way for them to reach out get your product get involved or otherwise get in touch with you depending on what you want to do just reach out to us on Facebook Instagram wherever you know wherever you send myself an email Jack at Ben scrunching calm when my cat bed scratchy calm off easily accessible and we'd love to hear share or give you advice on any ideas opinions they're everything so we're here we're in it to win it we're in to go we're definitely reachable awesome I appreciate you guys willing to come on the podcast and also willing to share and be approachable so it's been fun to have you on it's always I always get to the end of every podcast and I wish I had about and you know double the amount of time because there's so many more things that would have been fun to dive in on but we are reaching the end so thank you guys again for coming on for those of you that are for those of you that are wanting to get involved and be a guest on the podcast feel free to go to inventive journey comm and apply to be on the podcast and for anybody that needs a Patent and Trademark help we're always here to help start a small businesses so go to Miller IPL thanks again Jack and Michael for coming on it's been a pleasure and hope to hear who you guys journey continues to go well for you likewise thanks Pat thanks for having us [Music] English (auto-generated) All Sales Related From Miller IP Law Recently uploaded

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