How To Fundraise

How To Fundraise

Akeel Jabber
Devin Miller
The Inventive Journey Podcast for Entrepreneurs

How To Fundraise

Depends on what problem you are solving. Before thinking about money or investors, what's the product you really want to solve? Make sure there is demand there. At the end of the day, we want to make sure the product is there and there's a market for it. Get that nailed down. Have everything researched and be prepared and, I think you will do well from there.


The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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based on on on what the problem you're solving so think about you know before they get the money thinking about investors thinking what's the product you really want to solve um and you know make sure there's demand there that's at the end of the day we want to make sure that you know product is there there's a market for it and you know get that nailed down and have your data have everything kind of uh you know researched and prepared be prepared and i think you'll do well for [Music] me hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur has grown several startups in seven and eight figure businesses as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademark if you ever need help with yours just go to grab some time with us to chat now today we have another fun expert episode with the keel jabber and just as a quick introduction to what we're again talking about it's one of those uh topics i think that uh all remote startups i don't know how but a lot of startups and small businesses i get into which is you know the questions around fundraising what what to look for what others are looking for how to position yourself how do you set yourself up with an acquisition target how to evaluate your company maybe a little bit into a marketing strategy for raising and or acquisitions maybe talk a little bit about sas companies and should you be one and should you shift to one and whatever other good good topics that come to mind so with that much as an introduction we'll go on the podcast to kiel thanks for having me today devin appreciate it absolutely so now before we dive into kind of the talk or expert topic at hand just to introduce yourself a bit to the audience kind of let them know why you're an expert on this episode or why they should listen to what you have to say sure yeah so just to give you guys a quick background my background is actually i was a petroleum engineer turned entrepreneur so i actually started working in the corporate office you know went through that entire journey of you know how can i quit my job and you know for over six years that was over six years ago and here i am today you know focusing on on my own ventures and just to give you maybe a little summary of how i got here in terms of on the investment side um i actually started investing in the stock market as my kind of first way of making money on the money i saved um after about you know two or three years of trading and i realized a lot of different you know faults of you know focusing on on stocks itself because i realized you know i had no control at the at that point you know things could change overnight and you had no control kind of the price at that point the public it was already public so it was also very super competitive um and that's around the same time that i came across a book i think you probably heard about it by robert kiyosaki you know the cash flow quadrant uh rich dad poor dad and that's kind of where i learned the idea about you know building cash flow income to replace my active income well also you know how to properly leverage debt to grow um so you know i saved a bit of money at the time bought some real estate in canada which i still own today and and you know at that time in my i'm in my early 20s and i said you know it's kind of slow for me right i'm making a few hundred dollars here on my cash flow uh but i'm in my 20s i need to accelerate this i want to move fast right i'm impatient here so i started learning about you know different ways of how can i you know improve my investment so it looks great but i look at you know real estate more of like a 20-year maybe kind of investment horizon so um i thought of investing in you know existing businesses and i think that you know at that point we we built and actually opened up we have a franchise gym in canada and that has similar to the sas business where you have that recurring membership revenue i like physical businesses they're great but they're super expensive if you want to scale and you're also you know location dependent right so you know this gym is in canada if i want to operate another one i've got to you know invest half a million a million dollars to open the next one the next one next one um and i look at that maybe like a five to ten year investment so it's a little bit quicker than real estate but has higher risk but still decent rewards then i learned about you know online businesses and i think that you know years ago that's why i bought my first affiliate content kind of website from a marketplace called empire flippers if you guys haven't heard about it i think that one was making something like 2 000 a month at the time uh but that's where i really got to learn about how to monetize websites you know that's when the basics of seo how to run different conversion rate optimization tests and that's where i got hooked uh so that's when i quit my job six years ago i joined a firm at that time i moved from you know from canada they were doing what i really wanted to do which was like uh you know building a portfolio of larger businesses so they were doing like seven figure acquisitions uh that was a company called wired investors uh so we just got to learn the ropes to join them as the ceo of how to manage your bigger companies and now you know two years ago we found uh horizon capital and that's where we are today uh where we have you know a slightly different approach of how we we build our own portfolio awesome well that's i think it's a great introduction yeah it gives people i guess it gives people a chance to hear a little bit about why you know what you're talking about so now with that let's uh let's dive into it because i mean we're not all companies some come you know fundraising there's a big com portion of our big effort for a lot of our startups and small businesses then for some it's fine some are self-funded some have a minimal amount of investments some you can bootstrap some you can do others but for a reasonable amount of startups and you know small businesses that that's a one that's more cash intensive it's going to take more to get up and running than you can sell fund or that you can do with friends and family or you know any number of reasons there are reasons why you would go out to get fundraising and fundraising can be everything from you know crowdfunding it could be friends and family rounds it can be angel investors it can be venture capital it can be you know debt financing or you can go go out and get a loan take a mortgage against your house there's a lot of different ways but if we're then focused in a little bit and i think where a year would be out was either probably the more on the angel investor venture capital side if people are looking to go that avenue as far as to um to do fundraising what are some of the things that they should initially be looking at to position themselves to be successful in if they're initially looking to do a razor to get or raise some funds for a whether it's a business idea or a business that's already up and going they're wanting to grow and expand kind of what should they be doing to position themselves sure yeah so just to clarify we don't do vc investing specifically it's a little bit slightly different in terms of valuation uh but you know let's just say you're looking to raise we do growth equity so we work with sas companies looking for growth equity or they want to get acquired so kind of a different uh playground let's pause right there so for the met for the audience that doesn't know what is growth equity or what's the difference between angel growth equity venture capital and kind of what should they be or what is that okay so there's two so let's start with growth equity so growth equity is let's say i'm running this business i've been managing by myself i've been kind of have some money i have some partners working on it but i need i don't want to sell my company but i want to sell a minority stake let's say 20 30 somebody to come in and i sell my shares and i'm going to continue to run it and you're going to come in as a partner and you're going to help me accelerate it because you have expertise in what you're doing maybe you're better at marketing maybe a better product and you're gonna bring some cash to the table and we're gonna really drive this company forward um when you talk about acquisition so that's basically when you're selling at least 51 shares you know control of the business sometimes you know typically you might step away and you're no longer operating the business and the new person takes over and then the last one which is you know uh on the vc row is when you're looking to raise capital you're staying as the founder you want to sell a smaller share of your company for future potential so you need accelerated you know uh capital at this point that you have a plan of how you're going to accelerate the the growth for and that's where you you know when you're when you're thinking about vc capital um you have to look at it that you have to be able to show hockey stick growth so you've probably heard of that term before where you've you've got to be able to show how you can take that money and really you know accelerate uh the return on that because the vcs are expecting super high growth if you're if you're if you're going to pitch that that idea all right no i think that's a great explanation and helpful uh run through so thank you so now back to where you were going which is okay you guys are saying if i were to summarize it you take 20 to 30 it's a position where the company is at least established up and going in bed and now they're looking to either accelerate that growth a bit and you know to have someone come in and take a minority stake that give them some either money so that they can you know compensate themselves or more likely money to grow the business so they're looking to say okay how do we position ourselves to do that so what's the kind of those what should they be thinking about should they be thinking about doing in the first place when are you when is a good reason to think about it when are bad reasons to think about it and if you are a good candidate when is the what it how should you position yourself and i know there's like four or five questions in there so as much as you can hit on would be great sure sure i think you've mentioned something really important and that's the question people are thinking should i be raising money but like ask yourself that raise this is the point it's super important make sure you're only raising what you actually need so think of you know if it's your own money right if you have extra capital if you have too much money in your account what happens you become inefficient you know you decide looking for things to spend on and you just don't manage it as well right so don't go say you know i heard this before we're going to go out to market and i'm going to raise anywhere between 3 million and 10 million depends on what the market says so what i suggest is you actually come up with real numbers first like do an assessment of your cost for what you'll need for say the next 18 months so you have an idea right like we want to build this product this product is going to cost us you know we'll need three engineers we'll need a product manager we're going to need a designer we're going to do some conferences we're going to do some marketing budget and you have kind of a high level idea you know you know and then maybe add like a 10 or 20 buffer from there right um so you know use real numbers don't go out there and you know it's it's kind of a disrespect a little to investors too for raising too much and you see people right like that you know blowing around parties on an expensive office don't make a difference so now so now so so now that those are the things you need to do and i agree i think that's or one of the things he hit on um was that you know when you're raising money don't just go out it's not always good to go out and get as much money as possible or as much money as people are going to give you in the sense that one you're most the time when you give up more when you're taking more money you're going to have to give it more equity too right most of the time there there's expectations that come along with the money the more money you take it does come with expectations that there's going to be return on that money and that's going to be used well and so if you take five million dollars when you only need three then you either have two million dollars sitting in the bank or you have to think then you're either giving up more equity you're including more interest you're having more expectations and so i like the idea of first see whether you need it and what to what the degree in the unit so now let's say i come up and say okay i'm going to make a number i need five million dollars i took the you know this is our needs plus 10 or 20 percent and i say okay we're looking to expand to grow we're wanting to tell up with a minority stake and so they come to you what is the way that they should be positioning themselves such that they are successful or they're looking at their ones that you would want to invest in or otherwise partner up with yeah so the most i think from there once you know kind of have your numbers the most important part to get the intention of an investor is getting your pitch deck right um so just like think about you know applying for a job right that's your your resume that's your cv for investors right we actually have an article on your website if you want to check out if you want you need help with structuring that you know pitch deck um but like i said you know decide why you want to raise the you know you mentioned different options right there's revenue-based financing you can use that you can just stay bootstrapped there's nothing wrong with that but if you insist you know you have that unicorn or you can show that that growth um i think it depends the different categories in if you're in that very early stage where you're just like starting off and say like i have this idea um you're selling at that point the sale of that pitch is about you as the founder and the team and why they should invest in you and why you're the person that can tackle it okay so let's say you're an accountant or maybe a lawyer and you're facing this problem over and over again you have this technical expertise in legal and maybe you want to build a pro a product that you've seen repeatedly with your clients but you know the legal tech field um you understand the product you understand the field you understand the clients you understand the industry the business um but a mistake what i'll see here is do you have the technical expertise so maybe what i'm talking about here is like the actually developing the code if not then you need to figure out how you're going to hire or partner with the cto a mistake people may make here a lot i'll talk about is like they'll go say hey i'm going to hire a team in india i'm going to outsource to them outsource the idea to them they're going to build it for me it just doesn't work i've seen this many many times you know you think just spending the money and handing it over to somebody it's going to work you know you don't know how to manage the code you know if the code quality is there and in the long run it's going to cost you a lot more right no and i agree with you on that point it's smart i mean even whether it's in india whether it's in the us if you don't have somebody that's a technology or technical co-founder or a cto or at least someone that's high up they can manage that you don't know if you're overpaying if you're getting a good product if it's good code if it has a lot of flaws are they they're taking too much time are they not taking enough time are they spending too much and so all those questions if you've never been through it or don't have somebody that does their husband who knows what's going on it's one where you may you may not you can fail just on the merits not because you don't work hard not because you don't have a good idea but because you don't have that background in order to manage that exactly exactly so now let's say you have the the technical you know cto co-founder you know you build the world's best team or you know at least in your mind the world's best team but a good team and that you know that is definitely important what are some other things that you should be in the position yourself okay so you have your your cv your pitch deck right you've got your product you've got your team you're ready to go out you know how much exactly how much you need um now think about when you're same thing i'll keep using this analogy of you know looking for a job or maybe dating or you know your partner you're choosing your boss um do you have a good cultural fit with the investors not all money is the same so don't think uh you can go and raise from any investor that's willing to invest in with you see if you have that kind of cultural fit with them so let's say you you send it out to you know 50 different or 100 different investors and you now start talking with 10 of them it's just like you know you went out for 10 interviews and you know you get to decide okay i really like this company i really like what they're doing i believe in what their product i really liked the person i spoke to what the how they behave you know do you get along with them do you want to spend time with them would you go for you know coffee a beer would you have dinner with them um because remember you're gonna be tied to this person for the next five or ten years so you know i've done this before even myself right i've raised capital from the wrong investor and it's going to be a lot more headache than it's worth okay so think about the cultural fit make sure you actually want to work with them um and then the second thing is you know if you're thinking okay now i have let's say i narrow it down i really like these three or four maybe look at what is their domain expertise right like do they have connections in this field are they experts in this field have they done it before because they can help you with with hiring in the future they can help you with making better decisions on your product on marketing because you're going to have a lot of issues as you you know as your journey right that's part of the the game as part of it through that um you know that's something you want to look no and i think that that definitely is important know that i think that's that's definitely insightful it makes sense so now as we so so let's say now we're going to shift gears zip slightly and so you've now you've gone and you've raised the money you need you've got the product you're doing well you've been on the marketplace for a few years and saying okay i don't plan on being with this business for the next 30 years i eventually want to retire or i want to go into the next idea or i want to do something else and so now i want to be acquired so now you know opposite side of getting investors to get a company up and going or to grow it now you're saying i want to make an exit what do you then do to position yourself for enactment to be an acquisition target which is kind of the opposite side which is also what a lot of times investors eventually are thinking of hey that we're setting this up so it's a unicorn or they'll be acquired it'll be merger or acquisitions or an ipo or some exit event and so if you're saying hey i want you to set myself up for acquisition target what should they be thinking about so a couple of things like i look for if i'm looking for an acquisition one is really like growth opportunity right so you know the problem we see with people they come to us when their company is kind of flat they've kind of or maybe they're starting to decline right that's not attractive for investors like yes hey but we're doing this and we can all you have to do is this and grow it but if it was that simple you probably would have already done it right um is it a growing market so like is the market growing in which the the the the dem is there demand for this is it going to continue to grow is just a kind of a one-time fad and you know it doesn't matter how much marketing how much we improve the product this is just a shrinking market so we like growing markets and then is there quick wins that we can apply um so same thing on the growth side so those two sides on the growth growing market and then growth of the actual business and then it's really about risk assessment for us so we look at we have like 100 plus plus you know point checklist uh where we create like a scorecard out of 100 of how we like this business and we'll just kind of rank okay product uh design the team uh the marketing the growth look at all these you know ltv and cac ratios all these kind of fancy numbers um but in really i want to see growth in revenue i want to see growth in users i want to see sticky clients who love the product so typically for us like we're not product people as good as we are marketing people so we love founders technical co-founders who come to us and say look i've built this great product i've spent the last five seven years building it and i've grown organically and i focus on building the best product ever but i just haven't i haven't spent anything on marketing i just haven't had to and i really don't know that's not my expertise and i don't enjoy it really um so they come to us and that's where we you know that's our our partnership our value add we come in we know what works for your market for your product and we just really kind of add fuel to that fire um and you'll see that right like when sticky clients who stick you'll you'll see that higher ltv so that's lifetime value how long a client sticks around you'll see lower turn so turn is you know how how fast are your your clients turning over um so are they canceling are they leaving you every every few months you know there's something wrong they don't enjoy it um and the last thing is like growth and the management management shouldn't depend on the owner so we've seen this as well right like you're the owner you you are the business and so many of your relationships and your clients are dependent on you that's actually a risk for us because uh it's tied to one person and not the business and if we we're taking over we don't want to have that kind of risk of like you know once you leave the client's gonna leave with you or that you know it was all completely based on that relationship um so we we can add that we also added to that as like you know let's say 30 of your revenue is considered a risk that comes from one client so try to spread out you know how your client base looks like that you have that kind of a you know buffer so that if one client leaves you're not you know left with half the revenue and we can do things in kind of the structure when we've done that before where let's say like 40 or 50 of the revenue comes from one client and we'll say okay we're going to pay an earn out on that amount so we'll pay you okay uh 100 on this 50 revenue because this is spread around you know 50 different clients but this one huge enterprise clients is just way too risky for us because if they leave in the next year or two we're going to lose all the revenue and we will as long as they stick around for the next year and they continue to pay and be clients sure we'll pay the remainder out of your of the valuation we prepared but the problem from us is like okay that's nice we didn't pay for it but what happens if they do leave right if the client leaves now you're stuck with a company that's doing half the revenue right it's like yeah even though you didn't pay for it but you still have to you know manage this thing and you have half the revenue to manage half the money to grow half the amount of money to work you know manage your team so they have to look at things like cutting costs uh you know spending less on marketing specs less on growth and it just becomes an ugly situation for for everybody so if i were to maybe try and attempt to summarize that and correct me where i'm wrong there's a couple things one is you're looking for growth you're looking for increase in revenue in other words you're on an upward trajectory here you know upward trajectory for acquisition and then you're also looking for diversity they don't have you know maybe one or two big clients and that's if those those one or two clients leave or you know they go under or they get a very no that goes somewhere else but that takes away from business so diversity good or good growth good management and you know i'm sure a good product or good business um are some of the things you're looking for for acquisition so now we're going to switch you know switch gears just a little bit and one of the other things we talked about is it seems like everybody is trying to be a sas company in the sense that you know you're wanting that reappearing revenue so for those with the audience if you haven't caught it before sas companies often are software as a service which basically means rather than paying you know if you're to think back 20 you know 20 15 20 years you to buy software you buy it out you go in you buy the box you get it on the cd or the jump drive or whatever you load it on your computer and that's it you use it for the next or however many long unless you need upgrade then you don't need to everybody's wanting to be a service company to where you pay that monthly reoccurring revenue to where it's a steady income stream where you're not always having the pressures of upgrading or you're having a foundational base of customers and so a lot of companies are now saying sas is the model because now we can have that reoccurring revenue and it's easier to grow and to scale and to reinvest and everything else so question on that is if you when should you be a sas company when shouldn't you be a sas company when should you be thinking about shifting your pivoting to a sas company kind of how would you tackle that for different businesses sure yeah maybe i'll just add one point to the last one just to give you a quick scenario so vc versus how we do it uh two things you mentioned was growth in revenue uh like we like companies kind of flat doing 10 or 15 year-over-year growth like we're happy with 10 20 30 vcs are expecting 100 200 year-over-year you know 10 15 month over month so growth is going to be a completely different ballgame and you're going to get a lot more money and valuation based on that second thing is going to be your your cash flow um we're looking for break even or positive cash flow versus a vc they're happy with you know companies burning 20 30 50 100 grand a month as long as they're growing the top line and you know looking at the future so just something to look at as well and think about how you position your company um in terms of switching and kind of how to get started so i actually see this many people switching over to sas who built i'll say you know maybe in your field fantastic service based business and nothing against i actually absolutely love service-based business because they're high cash flow they're easier to start but the one thing they'll find after years of years of kind of grinding clients leave they come back you know you know different products they ask for different things things evolve but it's harder to scale and manage you need you know you always need more people every time you need to grow you need to add more people you know things move and you you know on and off and you know your costs are kind of managing that it's kind of becomes a pain and people just get kind of burnt down to that that model and obviously there's a little bit less margins because you have people to kind of look after that um and like i said if you're thinking about that like moving to sas think about what you're an expert already look at what you're already working on to solve and the problems that are coming up repeatedly in your day-to-day um and and then start thinking right like if i want to build a sas like start asking your clients that right like ask your client what is a problem you're looking to solve or what's is this a problem that you're seeing repeatedly and would they be willing to pay for a solution here i think that's kind of a simpler way to get into it um so that's one way you can go and start interviewing people around you and your industry and start building a solution for them the other way you can do is actually go out and work for a sas startup so go find a startup that you you really enjoy maybe you want to get in that world learn you know whatever you're good at if you're in product if you're in sales if you're in marketing it doesn't matter get your foot in the door learn the the environment learn how it's done uh what what it takes to kind of build the sas and be in that part of that growth or the third option is actually you know kind of do what we're doing is buying an existing established startup so there's a lot of companies even micro sas is out there that you know pretty small companies so instead of saying hey i'm going to go spend 100 grand and build this product that you know some of my customers said they might like and they'll pay and i'm going to you know lose money for a couple years but hopefully you know grow in the future there's companies out there who've already built something maybe have some product market fit or they've actually built the code there um and they have some revenue they have some clients but they just want to sell and you can kind of come in at a little bit later stage than um where they they have already built to no i think that that definitely all makes sense now one quick or one or a follow-up question we are recent towards the end of the podcast but i'd love to hear your thoughts on it is you know there's let's take you here are some of the companies out there that maybe aren't necessarily traditionally sas companies you know whether it's a plumber whether it's a landscaper whether it's you know other blue collar job or whether it's you know even a law firm most law firms are reoccurring they have clients that may be bringing work back but it's not a reoccurring revenue where it's hey every month you're going to pay me so much there's a little bit of shift to it but whatever the industry is there's a lot of ones that are traditionally not there should you be is it should you be looking if you're in those industries as a way to set yourself up as a sas you know just as a matter of course should it be as you mentioned only if it makes sense or kind of if you're saying hey i'd love to have that recurring revenue i'd love to set myself up to have that customer base to have that diversity set myself up for acquisition should you be is it fitting a you know square peg in a round hole are there opportunities that people should be looking at looking at to shake up traditional industries that haven't done that to begin to kind of have that first mover advantage 100 i think we're seeing that more and more happening with different service businesses so that's called i think we call that product high services um so you know i've managed that was a company i managed before called 99 social so that was the the kind of whole business model is you know you pay 99 a month and you get your social media posts seven days a week for your business um and i love them the thing is with that over code so with code you have to write code um you sell the product and the code does all the backward back work for you right it's running overnight 24 7 to give you what you know the service or product uh with productive service you really have to have really really good systems and processes and you have to be really defined so i think you know be defined in your product and you know one thing that you're doing really really well repeatedly and that somebody's willing to pay it's recurring value so people think i want to build uh recurring revenue which is nice but uh which is actually a lot better so even from an investment perspective we love recurring revenue we don't like you know one-time annual payments those are nice too but those are you know it doesn't it's you don't have that recurring cash flow that you can predict of what's going to look like and and how things are going to change with the business um so i think it is actually a good middle ground if you're in a service business and you don't want to shift directly to sas and build a product i think the product type service is happening you see that in cleaning you see that in you know those different blue color businesses and i would highly recommend everybody to try that for sure no no i'd agree i think that you know often times i'll actually just because i'm in the legal industry you know you get in certain industries that people say no well it's always been done that way yeah everybody else can do it that way but we can't do it because we're a different type of thing and it's interesting how often you really find that if you were to look at the industry there's a lot of opportunities to shake it up to do something different and don't do it do it just for the sake of being different but look and say where is the where is the industry headed what can be done should you know how can i take advantage of that and how can i rather than just do a traditional way are we doing it in the traditional way because that's the best way or just because that's always how this can be done and i think there's a lot of industry they'll continue to ship to be sas products or at least you know service products where you're having that revenue because it makes it so that it's a more sustainable business so i think that that definitely makes sense especially with the older especially with the older industries right where like there's a way of doing things and there's a whole you know uh thinking mentality around it like oil and gas you know legal i'm sure it's just everything is so uh bureaucratic i think there's just a lot more opportunities in those spaces as well so i think i think that's definitely correct so well as we wrap up and there's always so many more things on that i'd love to chat about that we never have time so sometime we'll have to have you back on and chat some more but at least for this episode as we wrap up i always like to end the uh the episode with one question which is you know i have my different questions for the normal authors there for the normal uh invention for the episode with the expert episodes i always like to you know kind of focus it on what we just discussed and so with that if if people were to say okay you know we talked about a lot of things about how to set myself up for investment how to set myself up for acquisitions should i be a sas company a lot of great things to cover but i can't do it all at once and like if i could only pick one thing if there's only one thing i should get started on if you're talking now to somebody that's in the startup or small business maybe they're just getting started or they've been established for a bit of time they can choose kind of one thing to get going on what would that one thing be or what would you recommend that one thing being uh on on what the problem you're solving so think about you know before the money thinking about investors thinking what's the product you really want to solve and you know make sure there's demand there that's at the end of the day we want to make sure that you know product is there there's a market for it and you know get that nailed down and have your data have everything kind of uh you know researched and prepared be prepared and uh and i think you'll do well from there all right so if i were to summarize that figure out what the problem you're solving is figuring out if there's demand and then go to work get to work man get to work today well i definitely appreciate you coming on the podcast you had a lot of great knowledge now people have additional questions whether it's hey they want to reach out to you they want to get more information they want to pitch you an idea they want to see if they'll invest in their company they want to get feedback on pitch decks they want to be an employee they want to be they want to join your company they want to invest in your company if they can't invest they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to reach out contact you or find out more sure so we also have a podcast called sas district so you guys can look that up on youtube or any of the podcast directories otherwise just reach out horizon capital h-o-r-i-z-e-n you can reach out or directly to me on on twitter linkedin you can find me at akiljabar awesome well i definitely encourage everybody to reach out and one or more of the ways that you just uh mentioned definitely a wealth of knowledge and a great expertise and appreciate sharing that now for all of you that are listeners if you either have your own expertise to share or you'd like to be a guest and share your journey feel free to go to inventive guests and apply to be on the podcast do more things as listeners uh one make sure to uh click subscribe in your podcast please you know all of our awesome episodes come out and two leave us a review so other people can find out about all of our awesome episodes last but not least if you ever need help with patents trademarked or anything else feel free to reach out to us just go to and are always here to help thank you again akiel and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last thank you so much devin appreciate you having me on absolutely

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